Ovolo cutters for a Record 405

[jim_hanna]

I have a query about ovolo cutters for a Record 405. Since it’s hard to find these online I was thinking about making some. The manuals available online show either three optional cutters 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 for the older model plane or two supplied cutters 1/4 and 3/8 for newer models. Unfortunately the manuals are no guide as to size and profile, the later model illustration for the small and large cutters looks as though it has re-used the images from the previous manual for the small and middle-size cutters.

I have one ovolo cutter, described online when I bought it as 8mm so I’m assuming it’s the 5/16(7.93mm) one and that the cutter measurement is the horizontal distance. If I'm wrong in the way the cutter is measured then please correct me.

I’ve ordered a bit of 3mm O1 flat stock to make the other ovolo cutter sizes. The dotted red line in the diagram above would be the line of the skate and clearly this must stay outside the curved section. Therefore to make a larger cutter I’m assuming I expand uniformly 1.5mm each side of the dotted red line for the larger 3/8 cutter and similarly reduce for the smaller 1/4 cutter.
Something like the blue lines for the larger cutter in the diagram below.

From the illustrations it looks as if dimensions should be the same along the cutter with the blade bulge staying at a constant 29mm depth and that the width is the only variable.

If anyone has a set of three cutters and can photograph them or even just say if my assumptions are wrong and the length of the wide head part varies as well as the width it would be a help.

The bevel doesn’t look very complicated, I sharpened the 5/16 one with a piece of wet and dry on a dowel so after rough shaping with a rotary stone I’ll use some coarse sandpaper on a dowel to establish the bevel before heat treatment.

Regards
Jim

 

[AndyT]

Well, that's an interesting question. I can't answer exactly but you have sent me back to the workshop to do some experiments which might be helpful.

My first thought was 'Can you really use an ovolo cutter in a 405? Doesn't it need the vertically adjustable skate that the Stanley 55 has?'

Now I have a 405, but no Record ovolo cutters and I also have a Stanley 55, so this is about both.

First off, confirmation that yes, Record say you can use an ovolo. This is what Planecraft says - though without a diagram in this case.

And I can confirm that you have a 5/16 inch cutter - the measurement is the radius of the curve, which is a quarter circle, + the width of the quirk.

Here are the Stanley cutters, 1/2" and 3/4" sizes, posed on some 2mm graph paper.

I had a go with the smaller Stanley cutter, in the Record plane. Following the directions, I only used the skate on the main body. Now, your drawing shows the skate line going under the quirk - which I think is a very good idea - but for me, that option was not available, and the cutter naturally lined up with the skate under the curved part.

Lined up like this, the fence will not run under the edge of the cutter - further evidence that the Record cutters must be different.

I did manage to make it work, and produced this:

But it felt like I was cheating - I had to move the plane in from the side to progress the cut, rather than the normal safe method of cutting down into the work with the fence always pressed in. It did mean that progress was quick, as I was removing very thick shavings until the plane was properly into the cut.

Here's a measurement of the piece, confirming that this was a 1/2" cutter:

Now with the Stanley cutter in the Stanley plane, you can use the extra skate, but adjust it vertically so both skates work to control the cut. This is the Stanley diagram, as included in Jones' "Practical Woordworker." (Never mind that they call it an ogee...)

There's no room or need for the third skate on a cutter this small:

and here's evidence that it worked

This was much more controlled and comfortable than trying to use the wrong cutter!

So, my not very surprising conclusion is that I think your design is bang on the money, and by taking what is effectively a much bigger bite out of the side of the cutter, you will move it across so that the skate can be in the right place to be some use.

So anyone else wanting to follow suit should follow Jim's lead, and not think that a more easily sourced Stanley cutter will do, just because it can be fitted into the plane.

Personally, I think I would just use a wooden plane, but that's not the point!

 

[GarF]

While I find the idea of custom making the cutter appealing, I'd go for the woody too. I experimented with the sash cutter in my combi plane for the wendy house windows I've just made and just could not get it to go well- a mixture of sloppy fence, iffy depth stops and trying to muscle a massive wide iron through the work.

In the end I got a wooden sash ovolo for not an awful lot, which cut comparatively very easily and used the combi as a 'sash fillester' for the glazing rebate. The results were fair, although I struggled to keep the 'spring' consistent. The finish after burnishing with a handful of shavings has to be seen to be believed considering the blade didn't seem really wicked sharp

 

[AndyT]

Two thoughts - GarF, I agree with what you say about the sash cutter and think you've found a great excuse to have a go at a bit of sash work. It looks very tidy.

And Jim, looking again at your picture of the Record cutter, I'd say it's the 3/8 size. Try using it and measuring the overall size of the moulding it makes, as in my photo.

 

[dickm]

If it's any help, I could take pics of the ovolos from my 405 against squared paper. PM me if that we be useful.

 

[jim_hanna]

And Jim, looking again at your picture of the Record cutter, I'd say it's the 3/8 size. Try using it and measuring the overall size of the moulding it makes, as in my photo.

Andy

I did a cut as you suggested and yes it is the 3/8 size.
The pic below shows the position of the skate on the cutter. What is also interesting about this pic is that it shows I should have realized the depth stop wouldn’t accommodate a wider cutter.

The fence does pass underneath the cutter but this means that quite a deep edge is required to accomodate the fence.

I first tried to clamp my test piece in the face vice and found that the bottom of the fence was fouling the vice jaw. I had to use a sticking board to hold the test piece.

With the skate supporting the edge of the quirk the fence is always held tightly against the work and the first cuts are very narrow and controlled with the quirk taking very narrow shavings.

As the plane gets deeper the shavings get larger as the profile forms.

Finishing up at 3/8 size measured as you described.

Many thanks for all the comments and information.

I think I know the shape I need now for a smaller ovolo cutter, the implementation might be more difficult. Hopefully I'll get some time over the holidays to try this (and the weather - my heat treatment and oil dunk will have to be done outside)

Regards

Jim

 

[jim_hanna]

If it's any help, I could take pics of the ovolos from my 405 against squared paper. PM me if that we be useful.

PM sent

Thank you, this will be most helpful.

Regards

Jim

 

[Vann]

I wonder if the Clifton multi-plane is still available - or more importantly (as we're probably not in the market for a £1500 plane), if the individual cutters are still available?

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Droogs]

Jim, you could have a look at the site below, they sell 405 spares and have at least 1 ovolo iron shown on the site

http://www.oldtools.co.uk/9-record-spar ... ory=9&n=27

 

[jim_hanna]

I wonder if the Clifton multi-plane is still available - or more importantly (as we're probably not in the market for a £1500 plane), if the individual cutters are still available?

Cheers, Vann.

I couldn't find Clifton cutters advertised anywhere so I think they are probably no longer available. The Thomas Flynn (who took over Clifton) site mentions other Clifton planes but not the multiplane so it may no longer be in production.

Jim, you could have a look at the site below, they sell 405 spares and have at least 1 ovolo iron shown on the site

Unfortunately, while the oldtools site has an entry and a picture for Record ovolo cutters the item is out of stock.

The only option seems to be to make my own.
Many thanks to DickM who sent me pics of his three ovolo cutters. From these I was able to establish that mine is the 5/16 Record cutter. The Record cutter measurement is the size of the curved bit of the cutout not including any of the quirk. I wanted to make the smaller 1/4 and larger 3/8 cutters to complement this one.

The piece of O1 tool steel I had ordered was delivered to my local Argos with 3 days. I had ordered 20mm wide stock at 3mm thickness. A 500m length, sufficient for 5 cutters, with free carriage cost me less than I paid for the single 5/16 cutter.
My metal working skills and tools are minimal, a hacksaw and a few files are my metal working tools.

The O1 steel as supplied cuts as easily as mild steel bar from B&Q. This is my first cut as I began the 1/4 inch cutter. I intentionally left a large part of the bar outside the working area in case I made a mistake and had to start again. The small cut-off is waste, the inner cut is the part which will sit against the plane body. After cutting with a hacksaw this has to be made straight and square with files since this is the reference edge for subsequent shaping and sharpening.

After a first fit in the plane to check length and clearance I used the existing cutter to make a rough mark for the ¼ curve.

I drew a diagonal line from the corner for orientation in the vice and used a straight file to flatten the corner and a round file to begin the curved cut.

At this point a honing guide is used to put a rough first bevel on the straight part, the 1/4in cutter was still the 20mm width at this point. The alignment in the honing guide is with the inner cut edge which will register against the plane.

The two cutters with rough shaping completed and the outer edge of the ¼ in cutter trimmed off.

To shape the bevels I used an idea from Alf’s combi plane site, a simple jig to hold the cutter at the correct angle and then a piece of dowel with sandpaper wrapped round it can be held horizontally. Much easier and more accurate than having the cutter vertical and trying to hold the sharpening dowel at a constant angle. I used a couple of sheets of cheap Lidl 80 grit paper for all the shaping.

From bar stock to ready for hardening in a couple of evenings work. The bevels are roughly ground, no point in producing the final mirror finish until the hardening is completed, I'm hoping heat warping will not be a problem in such small blades. With a bit of luck I’ll get a good day next week to do the heating and oil dunk outside.

Regards
Jim