Oak or Oak

[merlin]

I am going to make some internal doors soon out of Oak and would normally use American white, just wondering what other people would use.
I have used some prime European Oak of late but not sure if it would be better or not.

Thanks, Merlin

 

[doctor Bob]

European all day long. Always a better colour in my opinion.

 

[Racers]

+1

American is featureless in comparison.

Pete

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't think AWO has the rot resistance of English or European. Someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly.

I didn't read that properly - interior - duh.

 

[Ttrees]

Sorry I'm no help
Just to muddy the waters a bit
Is it Peduncle oak the same as Sessile oak in timber format ?
I would love to know the differences.
I'm guessing the latter, being harder to source.

Tom

 

[merlin]

Thanks Gents.

Would AWO be more stable than European as the doors will be quite wide, the house has under floor heating and seems to be a "warmer" type of house.

Merlin

 

[RobinBHM]

For stability you could go for laminated European oak.

I see you are in Oxfordshire, so Timbmet might be worth trying

http://www.timbmet.com/uk/products/rang ... air-parts/

probably 48 x 120 for door stiles

unless you are wanting Tand G doors in which case you could try County hardwoods for door kits.

I wouldnt say that there is a stability advantage of choosing AWO over Euro, although American timbers are harshly kilned often down to under 10% -their domestic market is mostly air conditioned houses.

 

[Stormer1940]

Euro over AM White. American oak can be shakey as hell, the reason I say I won't use it ever again. It looks good in the sawn state and after you plane it up but when you come back to it in the morning the shakes have opened up. I had a massive fall out with a supplier over it a while back saying AM wasn't fit for purpose.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Interesting that some seem to reckon they are able to relatively easily discern visual differences between the American white oaks and the European oaks. My understanding is that really spotting differences between all of the species that go into the general categorisations described as American white oak or European oak involves putting thin cross sectional samples under an electron microscope, or at least viewing them through a powerful magnifying glass.

In my case, knowing one from the other usually means knowing what was ordered and how the timber merchant describes the sold item - I've yet to meet anybody that can, with any degree of reliability, tell the difference between one or the other when faced with samples of each. I certainly can't randomly pick up a piece of what is certainly a 'white' oak and tell whether it's European or American, let alone get into the subtle differences between the many species that are sold as American white oak.

As to the original question, I suggest you use whichever comes in at the best price for the grade you require. Slainte

 

[ED65]

From what I've seen of white oak and Quercus robur in the flesh I would usually be able to easily distinguish one from the other if for no other reason but colour alone, the European stuff being distinctly browner as well as other differences. But I haven't seen much of the American stuff and what you say echoes what true experts say about identifying American white oak versus red.

In the textbooks and other written descriptions the distinctions between the two are fairly clearcut and the images seem to back this up, but where that is the case they chose characteristic examples of each to photo. The reality is that real experts in oak – such as a sawmill operator working with both species daily for 30+ years – can't tell them apart and will openly admit that they'd mistake red for white and vice versa regularly, because often they're not characteristic of their subspecies.

 

[doctor Bob]

Interesting that some seem to reckon they are able to relatively easily discern visual differences between the American white oaks and the European oaks. My understanding is that really spotting differences between all of the species that go into the general categorisations described as American white oak or European oak involves putting thin cross sectional samples under an electron microscope, or at least viewing them through a powerful magnifying glass.

In my case, knowing one from the other usually means knowing what was ordered and how the timber merchant describes the sold item - I've yet to meet anybody that can, with any degree of reliability, tell the difference between one or the other when faced with samples of each. I certainly can't randomly pick up a piece of what is certainly a 'white' oak and tell whether it's European or American, let alone get into the subtle differences between the many species that are sold as American white oak.

As to the original question, I suggest you use whichever comes in at the best price for the grade you require. Slainte

I reckon I could do it, as could all my staff and most of my mates in the industry, I guess we are the exceptions. As a simple rule, AWO has a ginger tinge, Euro oak has a brown tone. I use both and side by side the difference is clear enough. May be grades I suppose but would be surprised if that was colour based.

 

[merlin]

Thanks for all the comments as they make for an interesting read, I suppose some of recognition is down to the cut of the board itself as wood from the same tree can be totally different in colour and grain.
As to what I will use will be down to availability but I will start with looking at European.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I reckon I could do it, as could all my staff and most of my mates in the industry, I guess we are the exceptions. As a simple rule, AWO has a ginger tinge, Euro oak has a brown tone. I use both and side by side the difference is clear enough. May be grades I suppose but would be surprised if that was colour based.

I do find that intriguing because prior to moving to, living, and working in the USA for ten years I thought I could usually fairly easily pick out one from the other. Then my experience of working a fair amount of white oak from a wide range of North American geographical sources caused me to reassess my confidence. Quite frequently I came across stuff that if I'd not known it was an American white oak I'd have sworn from the way it worked, its colour, grain pattern and so on was a European oak. Ever since then I've been wary of offering a definite opinion to the question, "Is this European or American white oak?" Since moving back to the UK I've seen made by others, and made myself, a fair amount of furniture that includes both types even in the show wood, and I can't recall anyone (woodworker or customer) being able to pick up on it. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

From what I've seen of white oak and Quercus robur in the flesh I would usually be able to easily distinguish one from the other if for no other reason but colour alone, the European stuff being distinctly browner as well as other differences.

Yet to counter that I've come across significant amounts of English oak, and other European oak that are very pale with a distinct straw colour, almost a pale yellow. On the other hand I have experience of working American white oak that was very dark, perhaps getting towards something like a milk chocolate colour. Basing an identification on colour alone in these cases I strongly suspect would likely lead to a misidentification. As to other differences you mention, they might help, but I don't know what additional factors you use to be sure of an identification.

But I haven't seen much of the American stuff and what you say echoes what true experts say about identifying American white oak versus red.

I have worked a reasonable amount of red oak, nowhere near as much as I've worked either European or American white oaks. On the occasions I've worked red oak the stuff was unmistakably true to the classic description - red/pink, coarse grained, less prominent medullary rays and very few tyloses blocking the vessels. But I'm aware that it can sometimes be difficult to tell a red oak from a white oak. I suspect the difficulties come down to the species of red oak being examined, its geographical area of growth, the climate, altitude and so on. Oaks as a genus are pretty well known to naturally cross breed creating hybrids displaying characteristics common to both parents, and I suspect this may sometimes play a part in a difficult or impossible species identification using only such things as superficial visual appearance, gross weight, and so on. Slainte.

 

[Benchwayze]

Can we buy 'laminated' oak? I.e., rub jointed laths, like the pine boards that were once used as the core in block-board.)

I also have difficulty in sourcing veneered plywood. It seems MDF is the main form of veneered board. A bit heavy in 18mm thickness for a wardrobe. I'd risk a hernia moving a wardrobe made of that! :shock:

John

 

[ED65]

Basing an identification on colour alone in these cases I strongly suspect would likely lead to a misidentification.

Oh I agree. Sorry I obviously wasn't clear, my point was that my was based on the small sample size I'd seen firsthand. While my colour discernment would be well above average (I'm an artist, with lots of training in colour discrimination) it's irrelevant, no colour cues are enough to make a firm ID. When pros say you need a microscope to be sure I have no reason to doubt it!

 

[arnoldmason8]

Sorry I'm no help
Just to muddy the waters a bit
Is it Peduncle oak the same as Sessile oak in timber format ?
I would love to know the differences.
I'm guessing the latter, being harder to source.

Tom

Hi Tom As I understand it the timber from pendiculate oak and sessile oak is exactly the same. The only difference is way the acorns are attached to the stem : The sessile is attached directly to the branch but the pendiculate is attached with a stalk - ie pendant. Another bit of useless information!

Regards Arnold

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks for that snippet of information Arnold
Pondered this a few times but did not think it was worthy of a post
Tom

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

My understanding is that really spotting differences between all of the species that go into the general categorisations described as American white oak or European oak involves putting thin cross sectional samples under an electron microscope, or at least viewing them through a powerful magnifying glass.
Slainte

Richard, was mention of an "electron" microscope a typo? . Standard light/lens microscopes go up to around 2000x, surely that would be more than sufficient to look at cellular structure in wood. We had an electron microscope many years ago at my university when I was doing an archaeology degree, but they had to give it away because they couldn't afford to maintain it, I can't actually remember the numbers but it had magnification in the millions.
Paddy

 

[Sgian Dubh]

My understanding is that really spotting differences between all of the species that go into the general categorisations described as American white oak or European oak involves putting thin cross sectional samples under an electron microscope, or at least viewing them through a powerful magnifying glass.

Richard, was mention of an "electron" microscope a typo? Paddy

It wasn't a typo Paddy. Am electron micrograph is a bit excessive maybe, but I did mention the alternative of a powerful magnifying glass. Perhaps I should have suggested anything between these extremes might help with an identification. Slainte.