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HLA91

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Hey everyone

I bought this sawhttp://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-fatmax-back-saw-jetcut-11tpi-14/85480# and I needed to cut a 15mm thick board to fit by a pipe. I tried to cut 2 down cuts then used a chisel to cut the chunk out |_| but I couldn't get the saw to cut very well. It's a backsaw so I assumed it did its cutting on the back stroke but I couldn't even get the saw to flow forward and I ended up doing x back strokes and lifting the saw up in between. The wood was resting on a cabinet with my knee on it and the saw was pointing at a 45 degree angle to the floor. I tried jamming the board in a draw and cutting horizontal but still couldn't get it to go. Have I bought the wrong saw for the job?
I just wanted to cut like the attached pictures shows with what I think is a tenon saw.

Regards

HLA91
 

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  • tenon saw.jpg
    tenon saw.jpg
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It cuts on the forward or push stroke. Ideally you need to fix your piece of wood so that it is firmly fixed. Start the cut with a few light strokes, firstly using a few pull strokes to get it started. Then start cutting using push strokes.
Don't press down hard, lighten your grip on the handle. Let the saw do the work.
 
This would have been better for that application.

Stanley FatMax Heavy Duty Saw 22"
22" (558mm). Cuts on the push and pull. Aggressive, group-set teeth geometry for easy cut.
ae235


Toby
 
Not really. He states that his board is only 15 mm thick. Tenon or dovetail saw is ideal, unless it's a particularly deep cut.
 
Compared to the saw in the picture my teeth look less tpi and massive in comparison. Could the saw in the picture be a dovetail? Are they smaller teeth and increased tpi compared to whatever type of tenon my saw is?
 
TobyC":3l05cv5f said:
This would have been better for that application.

Stanley FatMax Heavy Duty Saw 22"
22" (558mm). Cuts on the push and pull. Aggressive, group-set teeth geometry for easy cut.
ae235


Toby

Hello,

In fact, a tenon saw for cutting a stopped cut in a 15mm board is a perfect choice. Clamping the board to something, or better yet holding the work in a vice would be a great help. Have a look at the photo of the tenon saw in use. The teeth are level with the edge of the board, not at 45deg, where there would not be enough teeth engaged in the cut, making things difficult. Even when starting the cut, only angle the saw slightly off horizontal and as soon as the kerf is established, level it off. It is best practice to start the cut on the push stroke. The saws cut this way and it is more accurate to cut to a line, by starting on the push. Pulling just makes an indistinct saw kerf, whick may or may not be where you intend, so you may find yourself cutting where you did not want. It just takes practice, and a much lighter touch than you might expect. Let the saw do the work, do not put any downward pressure to make things go quicker. Your job is to guide the saw and push it backwards and forwards, The saw will make the cut for you.

Hope this helps,

Mike.
 
Roughing out around a pipe? I'll stick to using a larger, more aggressive saw. If I wanted it neat I wouldn't cut two slots and break it out with a chisel.

Toby
 
phil.p":1mifhd1j said:
Tenon saws are for tenons - for virtually every other job you can think of, there is a better saw.


Tenon saws are for tenons but you can do a whole lot more with them besides that. Can't remember any Law of Woodworking that states you can't employ them for other cuts.
Crikey! We are referring to 2 cuts into 15 mm timber (that's nothing guys!), probably to the depth of not much more than your average waste pipe (maybe less). I think it would take me all of 20 seconds - and that's with a Dovetail saw.
 
Tenon saws with their thin blades and fine teeth (relatively) are meant for precision woodworking, not rough carpentry. A handsaw or panel saw or even a hacksaw would be a better choice for that particular job.

Toby
 
You might be able to do it with a Hacksaw but I doubt that you could do it in 20 secs.
He has bought a Stanley Jetcut at 11 TPI. £7.49
He's cutting 15 mm wood.

Just for you guys I've done a test. I even timed it. Took me all of 12 seconds to do the two cuts in . . . wait for it. . . . 30 mm wood (Crikey!!!).
No harm was inflicted on the Tenon saw during this trial. I promise.


000_0001-2.jpg
 
Hey chaps, let's have a bit of common. This is a shed hardpoint, not a boutique 18thC reproduction. It'll serve just fine, and then be good for butchering plasterboard too.
(Mignal beat me to the punch)
 
What makes a saw a dovetail saw? On Paul Sellers site he says his day to day dovetail is a Spear & Jackson 10" 15ppi. Now I have seen such saws on their site today but they don't specifically say "dovetail" but would they be any good?

Thanks

HLA91
 
Hi, HLA91

Dovetail saws are usualy filled as rip saws because you are cutting down the end grain.
You can use a cross cut saw but a rip saw will be faster.

Pete
 
Q1: So if I needed to do cross cuts ie when stop-cutting prior to chiselling along a length would a DT saw still do it or would I need 2 saws 1 DT for joints and 1 for general cross cutting?
 
Actually, the saw you've got (14" 11tpi hardpoint) will do just fine for cutting 15mm wood. If a saw has sharp teeth, it'll cut wood. Some saws are better at some cutting jobs than others (see below), but when needs must they can all do cuts they weren't really intended for - they might not be as quick, or as clean-cutting, as the perfect saw, but they'll cut.

The reason a saw is called a 'backsaw' is because it has a strengthening spine along it's back - the fat bit at the top of the sawblade. That's there to stiffen the blade, so that it can be made of thinner steel than the longsaws. The thin blade means more precise cuts when sawing joints such as dovetails and tenons, and makes for quicker sawing because the thinner kerf needs less waste removed than a thicker one would.

Way back in 18th and 19th centuries, when there were few woodworking machines around, the backsaws were developed to enable craftsmen to do their sawing chores quickly and neatly. There were four main types of backsaw. Tenon saws were huge things, about 16" to 20" long, and about 10tpi, designed for cutting the big tenons found in house carpentry and joinery. Sash saws were the same, but smaller; 12" to 14" long and about 12tpi, used for cutting the smaller tenons found in window sashes and cabinet work. Both of these had quite deep blades; about 3" to 4" for sash saws, and up to 5" for tenon saws. (True tenon saws are quite rare these days - the big joints they used to be used for are usually cut by machines these days. Sash saws have become known as tenon saws.) Carcase saws and dovetail saws had shallower blades, about 1 1/2" to 2 1/2", and finer teeth. Carcase saws were 12" to 14" long, about 13 to 15 tpi, and used for cutting dovetails in thicker stock such as cabinet carcase sides, and dovetail saws were 8" to 10" long, 16 to 20 tpi and used for dovetailing thinner stock such as drawer sides. Nowadays, carcase saws are rare, but dovetail saws have survived for small work.

The other thing you may not be aware of is that teeth can be filed to rip (cut with, or along, the grain), or crosscut (cut across the grain). Don't worry too much about this - a rip saw will crosscut, and a crosscut will rip, just not quite as well as the 'proper' filed saw will. Most new saws are crosscut, because a lot of modern work uses man-made boards such as MDF and ply, which cut equally well (or badly!) in whichever direction you saw them.

The one you've got is a good general-purpose all-rounder for all but the fiddliest work. Don't worry about buying a dovetail saw until you need to cut very thin, precise jobs.

To use a backsaw, it helps to hold the work firmly in some way. Clamped in a vice on a bench, or held in a benchhook on a bench is ideal - but not much help if you don't have a bench handy. In that case, clamp the wood if you can. Hold the saw as the sawyer in the picture you posted in your original questio is holding it, with your index finger pointing forwards. If you put all four fingers through the handle hole, you end up with a fist, through which the saw can pivot, and become difficult to steer, so you grip harder to maintain directional control. That tenses the muscles of your forearm, so you're not relaxed, and that makes steerin the saw harder! With the 'finger forward' grip, the index finger lines the saw up, and allows you to relax the forearm muscles and keep much better control. The other three fingers should grip just hard enough to stop the saw falling. Now, grip the work with your off-hand, with the ball of your thumb making a sort of fence to support and guide the sawblade. Line everything up so that the blade is almost parallel to the wood, upright, and your thumb is in contact, keeping it just on the waste side of the line. Start the saw with the toe end of the blade in light contact with the work, and make a gentle forward stroke. It can help to start a saw by 'taking the weight off' - just using your handle hand to almost, but not quite, lift the saw off - imagine you're bringing a plane into land on a runway - gently does it! Once the kerf is established, you can allow the full weight of the saw to do the cutting - don't try to force it or press it down. Just move the saw back and forth with slow, even, full-length strokes, concentrating on following the guide-line with the side of the teeth. Slower strokes means more control - don't try vigourously waggling back and forth like a mad thing, you'll miss your line.

Good luck - any problems, post another question, and we'll sort something out!
 
Wow thanks for the informative reply. I will try again with the 14" 11tpi hardpoint once I have a vice and workbech set up. I picked up a 11tpi more traditional looking tenon in a carboot and the teeth are smaller and I found the grip easier than the hardpoint which I found bounces a bit. Only thing I need to do is find someone willing to sharpen it for me, I will pay all postage of course, any offers? :lol:
 
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