Need help purging central heating

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Hi Den

I guess you're under pressure from your other half but in your situation I would be getting very heavy with the company who installed the system. It clearly isn't fit for purpose and you have every right to demand they correct the errors immediately or give you a refund in full.
Tell them to get it sorted now or you'll sue them and report to trading standards. Just a thought, check the paperwork to see if they are members of a federation as there is usually recourse through them as well, even the threat to complain can help. Don't rant and rave just be very assertive. In my case I threaten to set the missus on them :lol:

I would keep stum about fiddling with the lockshield rad valves (non turny things :lol: ) as on a proper installation the plumber (for wanty of a better word) should have tested and balance each rad in which case the lockshied should be left alone. They may try to use that as an excuse.

Bob
 
Cheers Bob

I am getting grief, but actually because i'm obsessing about it as I spend most of my time in the coldest part of the house anyway !! (not officially the doghouse you understand)

I also seem to have an adequate balance of heat round the house, not as good as it was, but good enough as we are unable to get anyone back till next Sat due to ours and their commitments - I can live with that for now and I don't think we're going to have problems getting this resolved eventually, we had this done once before by the same company and had no problems, the jobs turned into one of those nightmares as I'm sure any tradesman will know only too well (including myself !)

Roger that on keeping stum though, thanks, I would usually tell someone what I've done in case it makes any difference to what they're going to do
 
Hi Grayorm

Plumbers aren't coming till Saturday morning, but due to what I now know to be balancing of the radiators, we at least have heat throughout the house till then

On the plus side, I'm now a bit more confident with rads and may one day feel brave enough to remove from walls when decorating - something I've never dared doing !

Thanks for asking - I will update this after they've been - they are coming to flush the system, I hope they balance things afterwards (hark at me using plumbspeak)
 
Bit of a home goal perhaps in your original question as you need a plumbers advice!! I'm not a plumber but I've had the same trouble and it was an airlock. What I did was get the heating running, close all of the rads then go around they system and bleed the radiator from the top bleed valve (don't use the bottom one as it is for draining the system). Work around in the same direction as the radiators run - after bleeding each radiator still leave it off until you have done them all. Then go back to the beginning and turn them on one at a time, giving the system time to heat each up as you go so you can keep a check on progress. If you end up with one stubborn one then bleed this one again at the end. This should work??? Once sorted don't forget to put in your radiator additive again.

Jinx
 
Sorry Jinx, only just seen your reply - must have deleted the notification by mistake :oops:

Thanks for the info - I might try this at the weekend as I now have an update to this - see below

BL00DY PLUMBERS - GRRRRRRRRRR :evil: :twisted:

Arranged for them to come out on Saturday and flush the ground floor so I went out to see my mate Pete and play with his new planes =D> Stanley Sweethearts no less =D>, told swmbo I was getting out of the way as I do like to get involved in whatever is going on (you never know what you'll learn)

Anyhoo, came home after dark and no plumber had been, not even contacted swmbo to let her know. He did arrive though - 11:30 Sunday morning just as I'm going out on an emergency call out and swmbo is at the shops with daughter !

He said he'd come to flush the cold radiator, not the ground floor as promised, but he is the same plumber who came last time :evil:

Explained how I'd got the downstairs working and how we couldn't have all the rads on at the same time (he said TRV to me and I knew what he meant - I bet he was impressed :wink: ) to which he said he was going to speak to someone technical ?!?!!?

Anyway, as I said, I was on my way out to what turned into an 8 hour day :cry: so I let him go - swmbo has made the first complaint today, lets see what starts happening now

My dad has a word for people like this (not really anti plumber, honest) - he calls em a shamus which, to those who understand him as he still has a thick accent after 50 years, is quite the insult - I think the term applies to two of the three different plumbers we've now had
 
It's been said: magnetite, but in the rads, not the pipes. Your system, from the picture, looks like it was a disaster waiting to happen: 1970s or 1980s system, possibly without any sort of cleaner fitted and possibly without corrosion proofer.

I had one like that!

So here's a guess as to what happened: over the years, your radiators have corroded and collected sludge, which collects in the middle of the bottom tube, where the water flows the slowest. Normally it doesn't get in the way, although it will settle in slow pipes and clog slightly open valves. Draining to change the boiler disturbed all this, and the sludge is now blocking things, and putting your new boiler and pump at risk, too.

You need a power flush, including all the rads AND the boiler - everything you can get at, in fact. You need a Magnaclean fitted, to collect the sludge that isn't flushed out and keep your boiler safe, and for the next six months you need to clean it religiously, ideally every fortnight. You need a proper dose of good corrosion proofer when its finally refilled - Fernox is still very good, but in my limited experience budget brands aren't.

I suspect the plumber knew all this, but power flushing is labour-intensive (I had to postpone our maintenance flush this year - two days of our plumber's time was too much for us!). It should have been part of the quote: as others have said, putting a new boiler onto an old system is asking for trouble unless you do it.

I skim-read a lot of this thread, but if there was a flood changing the pump, that's often a sign of a lot of crud - in the 1970s through to the 1990s, pumps typically had gate valves (a sliding barrier, like those on lock gates), done so that when open they don't interrupt the flow. They're easily jammed or stopped from closing by crud filling up the bottom of the channel the gate moves in - they'll feel closed but they aren't. Aside: modern fittings are often ball valves (a rotating sphere with a hole through the middle where the water flows). They're more compact and don't jam as easily, but only on-off (gate valves can regulate flow, too).

If the above is correct (did the water come out black initially?), you may have other problems not yet apparent: There is a mode of corrosion known as de-zincification of brass. Brass is an amalgam of copper and zinc, and chemical action preferentially removes the zinc from the metal matrix. Result: It goes cheese-like, loses a lot of its structural strength, and can even weep as pinholes are created. I once actually saw a kitchen tap drop off the end of the pipe coming out of the wall - all by itself with no warning!* This happens to radiator valves particularly in systems that haven't had corrosion proofer for long periods. You usually find out when you try to undo a fitting and it crumbles or squashes as you spanner it. The only cure is to replace the fittings affected.

Steps to resolve it properly: ASSUMING THE SYSTEM WAS FITTED COMPETENTLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, flush the whole lot well, paying particular attention to the new boiler, pump and associated valves, including the 3-way one that does the hot water. While it's empty, check that all the rad valves move properly, especially those on the lower floor circuit, not too loose, and no grinding when you turn them. Change any you're doubtful about. Fit a Magnaclean to protect the boiler. Re-fill with a lot of corrosion proofer (more than manufacturer's specification). For the first few days running, go round everywhere checking carefully for leaks. Look around the time the heating comes on - water is flowing but the system isn't so hot that a small leak will evaporate. I use loo roll - hold it round the joints and see if it gets damp.

I'm not commenting on your plumber(s)! I've no idea what was said at the outset, or if you had an absurdly cheap quote or whatever. A lot of the work in changing a boiler is all the other stuff - flushing out and fixing up the rest of the system. That's why it usually seems like an expensive task.

One final thing: there should be a 'bypass' in any system with thermostatic valves. It's a path for the water to circulate if all the thermostats are off at any time. Traditionally this was the bathroom towel rail/radiator (always on), but sometimes it's the last radiator on a run or just a pipe joining the flow and return. It's worth checking with the plumber where/what this is: when it's all working you need to balnce the flow all round, and this bypass needs to be set to the minimum sensible flow, so it doesn't 'short circuit' the heating water. Otherwise, your rads won't get warm and you'll be scratching your head as to why. Once set it can be permanently left alone, but it's helpful to know if it *is* a bathroom rad, in case someone fiddles with it.

You might also want to make a note of how much each rad valve is turned on or off. It only matters for the lockshield valves (other end from the thermostats), as they stay set. You'll then know how to reset things if, say, you remove a rad for decorating later on.

E. (amateur plumber, albeit with 35 years experience)

*It was in a kitchen in Kathmandu - I was sitting at the opposite side of the table having breakfast. The tap fell into the sink. The open pipe shot water across the room, like something from a Buster Keaton movie. Why? Steel pipe buried in a high-lime-cement damp wall, and the back of the tap had been plastered in, in effect making an electrical battery and circuit, making the process much more agressive than normal.. By the time I got home from work that evening, they'd dug into the wall, replaced a section of steel pipe and fitted a new tap. They left a longer length sticking out of the wall, so it couldn't happen again.
 
Erik, sorry I never replied to your comprehensive post but later events made this a low priority

To all that answered, there has been no change to this, but due to earlier efforts, the heating has been working ok since - I just keep having to bleed my daughters radiator - something must be letting air in, but its not my concern now

So lets consider this closed and a small amount of knowledge in the subject gained by myself

Thanks again, and a happy new year to you all :ho2
 
It is always good to have a trusted plumber to do plumbing maintenance in your house. It is always good to engage someone that can do electrical plumbing, central heating plumbing and the like. Otherwise, it is very difficult to orient a new plumber especially if you call them for emergency work.
 
FarrellMackennon":1bnhj2kp said:
It is always good to have a trusted plumber to do plumbing maintenance in your house. It is always good to engage someone that can do electrical plumbing, central heating plumbing and the like. Otherwise, it is very difficult to orient a new plumber especially if you call them for emergency work.

Well, Farrell, five posts on and none yet about your woodworking capabilities.

Certainly always good to have a trusted trade to fall back on and when choosing we have always been told that a good plumber will always be booked up well in advance.

Strange then that you are able to post at 9.32am. Coffee break ? :-"
 

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