Mr Hill at the Bootfair

[jimi43]

Some time ago I acquired a beaten up old saw sold by Mr.I Hill of London. (or Joseph Vaughn Hill) of Sun Street London (circa 1830-1840?)

He took over the stock from Mr Howel....an early London sawmaker and sold his saws under the stamp I.Hill or J.V.Hill LATE Howel with the "sun" stamp above the "LATE".

THIS THREAD...told the story of that saw and its restoration by the most excellent saw maker of our parish, Herr Pedder of "Klaus and Pedder" fame aka TWO LAWYERS TOOLS.

This was the original basketcase....again..a bootfair find...

...and again after the superb restoration...

Note the stamps..

So...imagine my surprise when on Saturday at 5.30am I was wandering through the damp fields of the very same bootfair and came upon this little gem...

......with exactly the same maker's mark!

The plate is in far better condition...as it the whole saw including the mark and it does cut quite well but could just do with a touch up...

I think I might try that myself...not a lot to lose!

So...this rare maker in the same place twice recently...how weird is that!

...and at only 50p....a veritable bargain!!

Now...should I start a collection of this maker d'ya think?

Nah! :mrgreen:

Jimi

 

[Mr_P]

AFTERNOON, AFTERNOON thought you had to get up very early to find a bargain like that.

Well done Jim, it would be wrong not too ? wouldn't it ?

=D> =D> =D> but I'm very :mrgreen: jealous. North West bootfairs SUCK.

 

[jimi43]

AFTERNOON, AFTERNOON thought you had to get up very early to find a bargain like that.

Well done Jim, it would be wrong not too ? wouldn't it ?

=D> =D> =D> but I'm very :mrgreen: jealous. North West bootfairs SUCK.

Five AM Mr P! :mrgreen:

J

 

[AndyT]

So let's get this straight... Through the hours of darkness, you scan the skies from your cosy observatory, until the first glimmer of morning light... When you head out into the dewy fields of Kent where a crowd of crazed sellers have got up even earlier, to stock their stalls with high grade treasure to sell for small change... I don't believe it!!

What's next? A nice chest of tools all marked Seaton?!! :wink:

 

[jimi43]

So let's get this straight... Through the hours of darkness, you scan the skies from your cosy observatory, until the first glimmer of morning light... When you head out into the dewy fields of Kent where a crowd of crazed sellers have got up even earlier, to stock their stalls with high grade treasure to sell for small change... I don't believe it!!

What's next? A nice chest of tools all marked Seaton?!! :wink:

Spot on mate...spot on!

:mrgreen:

There were three saws in a row...on a tarpaulin full of rusty tools which clearly had been out in less clement times...

The other two were steel backed and relatively modern handled...the Hill stood out to me but was camouflaged to others. Dealers aren't that clued up just yet...but watch this space!

There was a Tyzack and Turner Non-Pareil rip saw too which was in pristine condition and sharp as a razor but I simply have to stop somewhere!

Jim

 

[Scouse]

What's next? A nice chest of tools all marked Seaton?!! :wink:

I give him until mid August at the latest. :lol:

Lovely saw by the way Jim, and the usual nod of admiration for the artistry Pedder and Klaus.

 

[Mr_P]

Think he had a good row with someone just prior to stamping that one.

Note to self: Read things properly.

 

[jimi43]

Think he had a good row with someone just prior to stamping that one.

Note to self: Read things properly.

Isn't it just the most amazing stamp you have ever seen!

There is no way on earth any amount of Brasso is going to obliterate that in the next millennium!

I think that was the idea...longevity. Messrs. Hill were renowned for having very deep stamps but the "LATE" part especially is almost something out of the first "TECHNICOLOR" film graphics!

It's 3D before 3D was even thought of! :shock:

Jimi

 

[swagman]

Great find Jimi. Mr Hill's spirit would haunt you if you didn't give his saw a good sharpening and then put it ta good use.

Stewie;

 

[pedder]

Hi Jim,

thanks for showing this saw. She's beautiful and looks sound. No need to change this blade. The little cut off at the front is not going to desturb.

50p, is cheap. Sucking cheap. 1% cheap. At least.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[bugbear]

Isn't it just the most amazing stamp you have ever seen!

There is no way on earth any amount of Brasso is going to obliterate that in the next millennium!

Yeah - the saw doesn't strike me as being out of the ordinary, but that stamp is amazing. I wonder how they did it without distorting the surrounding metal.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That's a gorgeous little saw!

Rare they may be, though the chance of finding saws by a London maker is probably increased somewhat if you happen to live reasonably close to the said Metropolis!

As a matter of interest, how comfortable do you find it to use? (I accept that's a slightly unfair question - you've only just found it!) The handle shape is clearly excellent, but the hang is quite high.

Should you start a collection? Well - saving gems for posterity when you happen across them is not really collecting.......is it?

 

[Racers]

Hi BB

I stamped this and then then lapped it to remove the ridge round the stamp.



Pete

 

[Bedrock]

Following on from CC's query re the apparent high "hang" and comfort, given what I would call the rake of the handle part, relative to the line of the saw, it occurred to me that in looking at Swagman's surperb saws, he uses a high hang with a relatively vertical hand grip.

Is this down to the personal preference, and comfort of the saw maker or are there some types of saws where a higher or lower hang, greater rake, might be of advantage?

My favourite saw is a Matthieson brass backed d/t with a lower hang, and by comparison to Swagman, a geater rake and this tends to be my preference when making saw handles.

Mike

 

[jimi43]

Yes Stewie...it's nice to see someone appreciate how wonderful these saws are...really special and worth preserving and then incorporate these skills in their tool making. It's very encouraging indeed to see this craft continue into the future in your hands and those like you around the world....and speaking of which...

Thanks Pedder...I thought you would like her! The plate (is that the right term?) is certainly better than the first one! Rather than languishing at the bottom of a rusty pile where she could end up that way...I know she will now go on cutting wood for another couple of hundred years.

Hi CC...I agree...I am always finding Charlie Nurse's most excellent wares at bootfairs and a few Crows of Canterbury so I think you may be right! I wonder if that increases the chance of finding infill planes in Scotland? Particularly at bootfairs around the Ayr region! Anyone know? :mrgreen:

I found Doris to be very comfortable. I must have done because the hang did not jump out and say "ouch" to me so I work on the basis that if it just feels right then it probably is. As you say I didn't get a chance to do a day's worth of dovetails with her...nor would I..I think that I would use Ginger for that job...of course!

Interesting to compare notes on that one...

Anyone notice the similarity that classy saws ooze in buckets? 8)

I'm not one to start collections but I do feel that rescuing these gems is a personal obligation....so job done and Doris has now a new home where she will be appreciated I'm sure!

Pete....thanks for that most excellent and graphical explanation. I shall be using that trick on Richard's lever cap come the time. Thanks mate! (by the way...did you REALLY do that welding with a stick arc welder...! Genius! :mrgreen: )

Cheers

Jimi

 

[Racers]

Hi Jimi

Yes, its the only welder I have.

Pete

 

[swagman]

Following on from CC's query re the apparent high "hang" and comfort, given what I would call the rake of the handle part, relative to the line of the saw, it occurred to me that in looking at Swagman's surperb saws, he uses a high hang with a relatively vertical hand grip.

Is this down to the personal preference, and comfort of the saw maker or are there some types of saws where a higher or lower hang, greater rake, might be of advantage?

My favourite saw is a Matthieson brass backed d/t with a lower hang, and by comparison to Swagman, a geater rake and this tends to be my preference when making saw handles.

Mike

Hi Mike. Its really a judgment call made by each backsaw maker. In my case I like to set the handle hang so that my index finger when extended points to the front toe of the saw plate. That allows the fore-arm and wrist to be much more inline with the direction of the saw stroke. By doing so you can then just focus your energy on maximising the saw stroke, and allow the weight of the blade assembly to generate the downward force needed to accelerate depth of cut.

By comparison, if you look at the hang on Jimi's backsaw, the extended index finger would be pointing more to the heel of the saw plate. In effect, creating a fair amount of forward energy to be redirected downward, where its essentially not required. IMO.

Stewie;

 

[Mr_P]

Very classy and widely copied design

1908 Tyzack catalogue

and I'm lucky enough to own this antique beauty made by H.G.Long and sharpened by a Meister (Thanks again Roger & Pedder).

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Following on from CC's query re the apparent high "hang" and comfort, given what I would call the rake of the handle part, relative to the line of the saw, it occurred to me that in looking at Swagman's surperb saws, he uses a high hang with a relatively vertical hand grip.

Is this down to the personal preference, and comfort of the saw maker or are there some types of saws where a higher or lower hang, greater rake, might be of advantage?

My favourite saw is a Matthieson brass backed d/t with a lower hang, and by comparison to Swagman, a geater rake and this tends to be my preference when making saw handles.

Mike

Hi Mike. Its really a judgment call made by each backsaw maker. In my case I like to set the handle hang so that my index finger when extended points to the front toe of the saw plate. That allows the fore-arm and wrist to be much more inline with the direction of the saw stroke. By doing so you can then just focus your energy on maximising the saw stroke, and allow the weight of the blade assembly to generate the downward force needed to accelerate depth of cut.

By comparison, if you look at the hang on Jimi's backsaw, the extended index finger would be pointing more to the heel of the saw plate. In effect, creating a fair amount of forward energy to be redirected downward, where its essentially not required. IMO.

Stewie;

The minutiae of handle shape and design can become a real rabbit-hole - I gather one or two of the saw blogs and forums discuss this in very great detail. Stewie's masterpieces look to be well adapted to cross-cut work on the bench-hook (a very common operation), with the saw's toothline parallel to the bench and about a inch or two above it. But I think the point about personal preference is a very good one.

One thing that does occur to me about dovetail saws is that whilst they do a lot of work for through dovetails with the toothline parallel to the bench top, they also have to cut half-blind dovetails, a task which causes the toothline to end up near vertical. The handle design on Jimi's 'Doris' seems a pretty good compromise allowing both to be done without too much discomfort or wrist contortions. The fact that Jimi reported that it felt 'natural' in that he didn't notice any real problem suggests a sound design.

------

Jimi - Interesting point about Spiers of Ayr infills being ten-a-penny at the bootfairs of the West coast of Scotland - following that thinking to it's logical conclusion, the bootfairs of Sheffield should be knee deep in the very best quality of all sorts of tools! Maybe my theory needs revision....

 

[adidat]

Sooo Firstly apologies for the late reply!

I already owned 3 of these fine saws. And had been after a DT version for ages not much on ebay! So i sent Jim a cheeky PM asking if i could swap it for beer tokens. Jimi being jimi offered it to me for a price i couldn't refuse (literally!)

and a few days later i picked it up from the post depot (because the lazy bar stewards wouldn't deliver it!) I hadn't realised how small it actually was and was shocked and very pleased when i opened the excellently packaged saw!





Here it is with the rest of the gang!



But the story dosent end ther folks!

Whilst looking over a previous post about the history of these saws and saw that the little stamped logo above the text was actually a sun. Which was there to represent the shop that sold this on Sun Street london. So a quick google and i found that this road wasnt that far from where i'm currently working! So i jumped in the motor fully hoping to discover Sun Street to be a road out of a dickensian novel with old fashion shops, butcher, baker, etc...

So you can imagine my disappointment when i discovered it was in the middle of some high rise new development office blocks!

I thought i better get a quick snap of the sign and saw! Got a few odd looks, not unusual behavior for london though!



Could this have been the shop?



Many thanks Jim, nice to see you back posting regularly!

adidat