Morticing Defeat.

[Andy Kev.]

Good Afteroon All,

I've just failed in my second attempt at doing the deep (approx. 4" x 3/8") mortices necessary for the making of the frame of the lid for the Anarchist's Tool Chest. The first try was quite disastrous with the mortices ending up going anything but plumb through the wood. I then bought a proper mortice chisel for the second go and this time they were a lot better but I managed to split the wood at the outside edge.

This has all been a good learning experience so far and the actual work was of course enjoyable but I can't go on buying loads of pine for ever and I do want to get the chest finished. So I'm going to buy the third lot but this time I will use a drill press and drill the bulk out then just tidy up the mortice walls.

The tenons were even more of a disaster, sawing being my weakest skill, so I'm going to run up the white flag there as well and do them on a table saw.

Any thoughts/observations other than (understandable) laughter?

 

[MrTeroo]

Have you tried to chisel the tenon away?

I made a hash of sawing them but with the chisel it was much easier.

Little by little, creeping up to the line works for me.

Why not forget your project temporarily and just make some mortice & tenons?

Use smaller sizes to start with?

Have a watch of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBodzmUGtdw

 

[AndyT]

Do you mean to say that 9 pages about mortice chisels hasn't actually helped at all?

Seriously, I agree about practice.

 

[Wildman]

use a pillar drill to drill the bulk out then the holes will be square seeing a right angle comes with practice.

 

[NickN]

I can sympathise, as my sawing skills are woefully inadequate. But the best way of learning is by doing things wrong, so I must be learning quite a bit about sawing straight, as I go wrong a lot... :mrgreen:

It really is simply about practice, practice and more practice - I think muscle memory is used a lot more in hand woodworking than people might think - and look at how long it takes piano players to develop the muscle memory necessary to land on the right note/chord each time without looking.

 

[Jacob]

Practice on a lot of scrap pieces until you can be sure of getting it right. Sounds like you've got a lot of scrap pieces!
I presume you know how to mark up and use a mortice gauge, face and edge marks etc. If not, that's where you start practicing.

When I was at this stage I spent several days making little crosses half housed from 2x1' - enough to kit out a large pets cemetery, then little T shapes with M&Ts.
The first few dozen were crap but they got slowly better.

 

[ED65]

Do you mean to say that 9 pages about mortice chisels hasn't actually helped at all?

Thinks back on how long threads go on UKW... Fancy that!

Joking aside though there is much good advice in that thread coming at it from various directions.

 

[ED65]

Any thoughts/observations...

Since you're having problems with plumb ever come across either of these tips?

Using a guide block as a reference surface for chiselling square to the wood is an oft-repeated tip these days, but I'd never seen the one about working horizontally before. I wouldn't use the face vice for this, there are less cumbersome ways of keeping everything firmly in place, but the basic method has promise I think.

I then bought a proper mortice chisel for the second go and this time they were a lot better but I managed to split the wood at the outside edge.

Is this with the workpiece overlong to be sawn to size after chopping the mortise? Leaving a horn (the excess wood at the end) seems to have fallen out of favour but it's an important aspect of doing mortises by hand.

 

[G S Haydon]

Jacob has it. Grab some scrap and practice! Not difficult but it will take time.

 

[Jacob]

..... Leaving a horn (the excess wood at the end) seems to have fallen out of favour but it's an important aspect of doing mortises by hand.

Yes.
I wouldn't bother with all that fiddly guide set up - it's just another journo trying to earn a living coming up with "good" ideas.

 

[ED65]

Jacob, you're missing the point of an aid like this.

Of course guide blocks are not needed by anyone who has formally learned to chop mortises and then does them regularly, especially if over the span of many years when it truly becomes second nature. But tips like these are for a different sort entirely, people who don't do them regularly (and probably never will), are experiencing difficulties in chopping square now, and need to get the work done with minimal chance of wasting materials.

 

[bugbear]

I then bought a proper mortice chisel for the second go and this time they were a lot better but I managed to split the wood at the outside edge.

Is this with the workpiece overlong to be sawn to size after chopping the mortise? Leaving a horn (the excess wood at the end) seems to have fallen out of favour but it's an important aspect of doing mortises by hand.

A handscrew solves the work holding and splitting problem in one hit:

http://www.woodworkinfo.site88.net/tour ... rtice_hold

Handscrews are great!

BugBear

 

[Andy Kev.]

Thank you very much indeed for all the replies. The thing is that I'm fairly good with smaller "normal" sized mortice and tenons. I suspect that the dimensions of these ones are what have got the better of me. I accept entirely Jacob's idea of the need for a serious practice session. I do know that as I saw down, I have a tendency to drift to the right away from the line, which is of course absolutely fine when I position the waste on the RHS but it is that tendency which I have to correct.

I like MrTeroo's idea of chiselling such a large tenon (a paring as opposed to chopping action I presume) and finishing off with the router plane. I'll give that a go.

Bugbear: I did use a handscrew in the manner shown on your link. Still managed to bash out the end of the wood though ... You've got to laugh, really.

 

[MrTeroo]

Thank you very much indeed for all the replies. The thing is that I'm fairly good with smaller "normal" sized mortice and tenons. I suspect that the dimensions of these ones are what have got the better of me. I accept entirely Jacob's idea of the need for a serious practice session. I do know that as I saw down, I have a tendency to drift to the right away from the line, which is of course absolutely fine when I position the waste on the RHS but it is that tendency which I have to correct.

I like MrTeroo's idea of chiselling such a large tenon (a paring as opposed to chopping action I presume) and finishing off with the router plane. I'll give that a go.

Bugbear: I did use a handscrew in the manner shown on your link. Still managed to bash out the end of the wood though ... You've got to laugh, really.

I do it gently with the hammer.

Finish off by paring by hand.

Watch from 06:20 in this video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0p4IpCIks

 

[D_W]

Jacob has it. Grab some scrap and practice! Not difficult but it will take time.

Guaranteed success. The world of guru woodworking provides you with suggestions that your first joint will be great, but mistakes are a better teacher if you want results and the ability to progress on your own.

Forums are for arguing, practice is for getting results.

 

[sploo]

Thank you very much indeed for all the replies. The thing is that I'm fairly good with smaller "normal" sized mortice and tenons. I suspect that the dimensions of these ones are what have got the better of me. I accept entirely Jacob's idea of the need for a serious practice session. I do know that as I saw down, I have a tendency to drift to the right away from the line, which is of course absolutely fine when I position the waste on the RHS but it is that tendency which I have to correct.

I like MrTeroo's idea of chiselling such a large tenon (a paring as opposed to chopping action I presume) and finishing off with the router plane. I'll give that a go.

Bugbear: I did use a handscrew in the manner shown on your link. Still managed to bash out the end of the wood though ... You've got to laugh, really.

As a fellow terrible "hand sawyer" I've heeded Paul Sellers' advice on backing out of the cut when it starts to drift (i.e. lift the saw a bit) then correct the path.

In some of his videos he also shows a guide (clamped to the workpiece, to ensure the chisel goes in straight).

For tenons I'll saw (badly) or split with a chisel (usually badly) and then pare with a chisel and/or use a router plane with a long base for stability. I tend to leave plenty of waste, and sneak my way down to the right size. With regular practice I'm sure that'd get better and quicker, but there's always a Festool Domino looking at me when I'm in a hurry

 

[ED65]

Handscrews are great!

Agreed! Awesome pieces of kit.

I wish they'd become popular again. Much more popular, so the price would come down and then I could afford a few

 

[rafezetter]

A handscrew solves the work holding and splitting problem in one hit:

http://www.woodworkinfo.site88.net/tour ... rtice_hold

Handscrews are great!

BugBear

I'm in the process of making a couple of pairs of handscrews for this very purpose, one of which I'm going to add wider reference faces as the stock is a bit small (40 x 30mm)

I got the idea from seeing a picture on here of Derek Cohen using a traditional for trimming a tenon.

 

[John15]

A reason for the saw going off line may be due to an uneven set, and not so much your sawing skill.

John

 

[Andy Kev.]

A reason for the saw going off line may be due to an uneven set, and not so much your sawing skill.

John

That's a very charitable suggestion but the fault is mine, unless of course all my rip cut saws suffer the same affliction whereas my crosscut ones all stay bang in the line. Actually, the latter is not quite true: they all stay bang on line across the grain but also tend to drift off to the right as I go down the cut but not as much as when I'm cutting rip.