Money for the stupid

[Racers]

Hi,

I can't see the point in the Saw Stop, I want to be scared of my power tool and be carefull around them.

Pete

 

[Mike.C]

Hi,

I can't see the point in the Saw Stop, I want to be scared of my power tool and be carefull around them.

Pete

Pete I think that anyone who owned a SawStop and was not scared of it or any other power tool is a fool, either that or an accident waiting to happen. :roll: Do not forget that any video you see of the machines safety device working is a low speed contact with a hotdog, which represents your hand/finger receiving a glancing blow of the blade as you push your timber through the machine. But if you were to trip and fall into the saw, in other words you hand hits the blade at high speed then they admit that you could still suffer a very serious injury, in other words lose your fingers or hand :shock:

I have read a bit about this saw, but it is only recently that others have mentioned how the actual safety device works, and that when triggered an aluminum pawl is shot at high speed into the spinning blade and actually damages the teeth, so a new blade is needed every time.
Alright a new cartridge is only $80 (or £180 if they ever start selling them over here), but we all fit the very best blades we can afford, and although you would be happy to pay if your fingers were saved, I would be well cheesed by a few false alarms.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Lons]

Asking for trouble that is. What happens if the device fails? Great big brightly coloured guards every time for me.

Roy.

It isn't the saw responsible for cutting off fingers - it's the pratt using it! (Barring genuine accidents of course)

I'm all for everything being made safer to use but surely the most important factor is to properly train the silly person who uses it.

Just have to look at the comparison with certain devices fitted to modern cars such as abs and ebd.

Will definately save lives when a vehicle misbehaves whilst being properly driven however just look at the idiots who drive irresponsibly and missuse the safety features because with them they feel invincible. There will always be prats!

I know if I switch off the dsc on my car there is a massive difference in handling the car is more responsive and more fun to drive. I take care and treat it with respect. With it on the car feels more in control than the driver but much more predictable.

Problem with too many safety measures is that the person involved can lose the fear factor and suddenly the safe car is dangerous again as it's pushed beyond it's limits.

Utopia would be extremely safe machinery but operators with the skill and respect of old. IMO

 

[JoinerySolutions]

Hi,

I can't see the point in the Saw Stop, I want to be scared of my power tool and be carefull around them.

Pete

I just treat them with due respect, fear is not productive.

Alright a new cartridge is only $80 (or £180 if they ever start selling them over here), but we all fit the very best blades we can afford, and although you would be happy to pay if your fingers were saved, I would be well cheesed by a few false alarms.

Cheers

Mike

One false alarm would see me removing the silly thing, loss of blade plus machine downtime costs would make it too expensive to fit, anyone stuffing fingers into a blade is not using a push stick etc and not thinking of the job in hand so I would sack them anyway.
For those to whom woodworking is a pastime there is really no need to fit one as you should be in no hurry to do any one machining task and have the appropriate safety guards and push sticks in service. Besides blood has a nasty habit of ruining expensive timber. :wink: :lol:

 

[Digit]

I'm with Lons.

Roy.

 

[Ring]

Here is the inventor sticking his own finger in :shock: :shock: :shock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLE

 

[peter99]

You shouldn't be fearful of the machine. If you are get someone to go through the safe operation/procedure of use and don't use it at all till you have done that.

Fear makes you timid, nervous, stand back (off balance) from the machine / hand held, 'jab' away at it and make mistakes.

You should be respectful every time you use it, every time. This makes you use it properly, stand / hold it with intention and balance, work smoothly and not relax whilst doing it.

I have a 3 point check every time I'm about to make a pass.

Once ready to cut /feed etc with the stock in position and my hands positioned about to do it, I say to myself..

STOP
CHECK HANDS SAFE AND ABOUT TO FOLLOW SAFE PATH
GO

2 seconds, I do it EVERY time.

peter

 

[Lons]

You shouldn't be fearful of the machine. If you are get someone to go through the safe operation/procedure of use and don't use it at all till you have done that.

Fear makes you timid, nervous, stand back (off balance) from the machine / hand held, 'jab' away at it and make mistakes.

You should be respectful every time you use it, every time. This makes you use it properly, stand / hold it with intention and balance, work smoothly and not relax whilst doing it.

I have a 3 point check every time I'm about to make a pass.

Once ready to cut /feed etc with the stock in position and my hands positioned about to do it, I say to myself..

STOP
CHECK HANDS SAFE AND ABOUT TO FOLLOW SAFE PATH
GO

2 seconds, I do it EVERY time.

peter

I agree with all of that though not sure I follow that every time and I use a lot of potentially lethal equipment in sometimes very dodgy circumstances but have to get the job done.

I would liken fear along with respect in the context of machinery.

I know what a chainsaw or a stillsaw can do to my limbs but I have to use it and often without full protection and difficult stance. Because I know, I approach it with confidence, I am "afraid" not of the machine but the consequences and therefore am careful to respect it.

Bit like owning a pit bull I imagine. You might care for it, clean and look after it but you need to know that one day you might turn your back and it'll bite you in the buttocks! :lol:

 

[Digit]

Yes Lons, as my dad said.
The gun's always loaded, the horse always kicks and the dog always bites.....
... and he was correct!

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

I know what a chainsaw or a stillsaw can do to my limbs but I have to use it and often without full protection and difficult stance. Because I know, I approach it with confidence, I am "afraid" not of the machine but the consequences and therefore am careful to respect it.

I'm not having a pop mate but there is never a good reason to use a chainsaw without full PPE even if just for one cut - imo to do so is not showing the machine propper respect

My mate si watched one of his oldest freinds die from a severed femeoral artery as a result of not putting his ppe because it was "just one cut"

and another guy i know is now minus one eye and has a disfiguring scar on his forehead after deciding it was too hot to work with his hard hat on.

and both of these guys were, like me and si, proffesional chainsaw users.

If you are "often" working without full protection you are playing with fire - take my advice and dont wind up as a cauitioonary tale being told to the next person who doesnt see PPE as obligitary

 

[peter99]

Lons, mate, is it worth it? Until recently I lived on a farm with about 10 chain saws. Always PPE. Even with the petrol strimmer, hard hat, screen and visor.

Believe me and I'm not trying to frighten you, you will have a significant cut using that saw the way you are. Please rethink it. BSM is right.

:shock: :shock:

 

[Lons]

Lons, mate, is it worth it? Until recently I lived on a farm with about 10 chain saws. Always PPE. Even with the petrol strimmer, hard hat, screen and visor.

Believe me and I'm not trying to frighten you, you will have a significant cut using that saw the way you are. Please rethink it. BSM is right.

:shock: :shock:

Yeah, I've seen first hand what can happen and my missus used to be a staff nurse on A&E so she's seen it as well.

I treat all my tools with the utmost respect as I have done for very many years but my job would be all but impossible if all the rules were followed.

I always try to buy the best tools I can afford and keep them sharp and in good repair.

My chainsaw isn't such a problem and of course where possible, I always use the relevent guarding. I also ensure I don't work alone if possible for obvious reasons. Never had a accident (touch wood) in 25 years. I did attend a safety course some time ago so have a certificate.

my biggest problem is the stillsaw. there are times when the only possible way to cut into stone walls for lead flashing for instance is to stand on a pitched roof. Not always possible to errect scaffolding effectively. Just have to esure that if the blade kicks, it's thrown away from the operator. i.e. -me.

I've had 2 accidents in my life - both my fault:-

1). cut a finger on my bandsaw because I was near the end of a job, in a hurry and didn't change a blunted blade. Finger ok but a hell of a lesson.

2). Nailed a finger with my paslode - was distracted by a customer, nail hit a knot and deflected on to a finger which should not have been in the line of fire - again ok "phew"!
The ironic thing waqs that I was due to lecture on health and safety the following day and I used that as an example of what not to do

Bob
Maybe I'm just lucky but I am damned careful normally

 

[peter99]

Ok. :shock:

Only advice I can offer you is carry a tournique and make sure your in phone network coverage when working like that, at least you have a chance if you do cut an artery on a limb then.

I fully understand when working and not diy-ing time is everything if your to make money. You can ALWAYS erect scaffolding no matter how difficult, problem is you include it but there's always someone willing to risk it without (ie you at the moment) to make more profit. So the customer goes for the lowest quote and the sensible firm looses the work.

Ask yourself this, when your disabled (hopefully not dead), will that customer look after you financially for the rest of your life? No, won't even send you a christmas card!

And if your employed by someone else etc why take the risk for their bigger pockets?

We all hate the overbearing health and safety culture and cut certain corners (like having to wheel a scaffold platform into a 3' square toilet cubicle to stand 18" off the floor because the site manager didn't allow even 2' steps, and we had step / ladder user certificates, we ignored that one). But you are working at the far end of that scale.

Reason I write this is I don't want to read on here that something has happened to you, not to argue or be difficult. Reading your replies it really does seem you think it isn't going to happen to you, it must be that, because you say your trained up, seen the consequences and still do it.

It can happen to any of us (including me). I just take the attitude that if I have done the right thing and PPE'd then I would have done all reasonable things under the circumstances.

I shan't nag you any more on this one, and it's written for the right reasons, not to be a pain, honest.

All the best

Peter

 

[big soft moose]

I fully concur with peter - but i'm not going to nag you about it either (in addition to the tornique you can alsao get packets of haemostatic granules which were originally developed by the military to deal with shell fragment wounds but which also give a much better chance of surving a major chainsaw/skilsaw cut.)

 

[woodbloke]

It isn't the saw responsible for cutting off fingers - it's the pratt using it! (Barring genuine accidents of course)

I'm all for everything being made safer to use but surely the most important factor is to properly train the silly person who uses it.

Just have to look at the comparison with certain devices fitted to modern cars such as abs and ebd.

Will definately save lives when a vehicle misbehaves whilst being properly driven however just look at the idiots who drive irresponsibly and missuse the safety features because with them they feel invincible. There will always be prats!

I know if I switch off the dsc on my car there is a massive difference in handling the car is more responsive and more fun to drive. I take care and treat it with respect. With it on the car feels more in control than the driver but much more predictable.

Problem with too many safety measures is that the person involved can lose the fear factor and suddenly the safe car is dangerous again as it's pushed beyond it's limits.

Utopia would be extremely safe machinery but operators with the skill and respect of old. IMO

This is the essence of it...it's a machine, just a static lump of cast iron, steel and some plastic. It only becomes dangerous when 'unsafe working practices' (see, I was paying attention at YOKB :wink: ) are used by the operator...(read 'murricans and unguarded blades here)
The same argument is analogous IMO of a motorcycle...it doesn't do anything until someone gets on it to ride it and that's when things can sometimes go wrong - Rob

 

[Lons]

I fully concur with peter - but i'm not going to nag you about it either (in addition to the tornique you can alsao get packets of haemostatic granules which were originally developed by the military to deal with shell fragment wounds but which also give a much better chance of surving a major chainsaw/skilsaw cut.)

Haven't heard of the granules. Interesting I'll do a google on those.

Thanks for all the advice guys, and from Peter99. I consider myself hands smacked and thoroughly chastised All comments taken on board and of course are valid!

I'm ashamed as I used to lecture part time and it's a case of do as I say, not as I do.

I'm a sole trader with small business and luckily my circumstances and age mean that I can pick and choose the work I accept. But the fact is that there are many occasions where it is just not practical to erect effective scaffolding.

I own 3 towers, trestles and masses of scaffold so have the gear.
Small extensions and coservatories on domestic properties often in very tight spaces with various obstacles means you just can't get the damn stuff in. Always do if I can though and it's always factored into my costs. My work is all recommendation, I gave up worrying about being undercut on price years ago!

Another problem is electricity and the English weather as whilst i have the usual 110v equipment, there are times when I have to use 240v and i can't justify doubling up on tools.
Thank goodness for cordless which is the biggest safety improvent in recent years IMO.

I think also that it's the familiar things you do which most often catch you out because you're on autopilot and most deaths and serious injuries in the construction industry is caused by falls.

If you are 4mtrs up on a building you are bloody careful all the time, if 2 mtrs high it doesn't seem so bad - both can kill you if you hit something hard at the bottom.
Years ago we'd been working for weeks at 4mtrs on a large commercial extension but when inside on 1 mtr high staging, my brother fell off (careless) and broke an arm............may have been worse if I hadn't grabbed his collar on the way down. For weeks he told people I tried to strangle him! :lol: :lol:

 

[ondablade]

It can happen anytime. But if it's something you are doing day in day out it takes real care and good habits not to eventually get caught...

ian