Leg vices... musings

[Jacob]

...
I'd be interested to hear what you see are the benefits of a leg vice.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Main benefit is it's lot cheaper than a Record REC53ED - £150 or more, though that's about the best you can get. Even cheaper record vices are over £50.
I'd be inclined to swap them over with the more useful Record on the front and the leg-vice on the end.

 

[kinsella]

Douglas
Did you do this from plan, would love a copy if your willing to share?

 

[DTR]

Main benefit is it's lot cheaper than a Record REC53ED - £150 or more, though that's about the best you can get. Even cheaper record vices are over £50.
I'd be inclined to swap them over with the more useful Record on the front and the leg-vice on the end.

Even cheaper from the boot fairs. I got a pair of Record 52s for £15.

 

[AndyT]

...
I'd be interested to hear what you see are the benefits of a leg vice.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Main benefit is it's lot cheaper than a Record REC53ED - £150 or more, though that's about the best you can get. Even cheaper record vices are over £50.
I'd be inclined to swap them over with the more useful Record on the front and the leg-vice on the end.

Not sure of the history of all this really (I've not read up much on benches) but is it just the case that the all-wooden leg vice was something that the craftsman could build for himself from readily available materials. Therefore found on early, pre-industrial revolution benches. Later on, good castings came in, quicker and easier than the somewhat challenging hand-threaded wood option. They became popular, so people forgot about the old-fashioned leg vice.

Nowadays we have historically interested woodworkers reading back into the past and looking intelligently at surviving old examples, and asking which option they prefer.

 

[AndyT]

After posting the above, I remembered a section in "Every Man His Own Mechanic" which is relevant. This is a fascinating old Victorian diy manual, aimed squarely at the sort of gent who ought to get a proper tradesman in, but wants to save a few bob and develop a hobby instead. I have a paper copy from 1882 but there is a slightly later edition, very well scanned, available at the Internet Archive to read on-line or download.

Start at this page http://www.archive.org/stream/everymanhisownme00youn#page/220/mode/2up and read on for a bit. The author says that an ordinary wooden bench screw will cost from 1s 6d to 2s 6d according to size. An iron one is 3s 6d to 10s, but Churchill's in London will sell you a good wrought-iron bench screw for 1s 6d to 3s.

After several pages describing holdfasts, leg vices, and the "Croix de St Pierre" parallel mechanism, we finally get to a picture of something more familiar - a newly patented "Standard Instantaneous Grip Vice". This is described at length and illustrated - the author expects his readers to be sceptical - this new-fangled invention costs a whopping 18s, or if you have it with wooden facings fitted, a whole pound!

So, that's a longer way of saying that Jacob was right, but with some evidence to support it.

Douglas, I think you will probably be downloading this book and studying it, if you haven't already.
There is a lot of good stuff in it, and some things that people would probably disagree with. I specially like the advice in paragraph 1143 that amateurs should keep a box of old metal bits and pieces, as "everything comes useful once in seven years" and also the instructions on how to sink your own Abyssinian Tube Well.

 

[condeesteso]

Certainly will Andy, well-researched as usual =D>
I too like the 'keep a box of odds... everything becomes useful once every seven years'... It's true, as you will recall sending me the screw for my plough fence!

I think this is very much the history of the leg vice... shop made incl wooden screw, and pre-dating cast vices. I only became interested after reading Mr Schwarz making several and saying how good they are. So for me it was an investigation.

Jumps was over today and I think he was fairly impressed when I clamped a piece in the leg vice, gave the screw a slight tighten (I mean slight) then lifted the bench by the piece of scrap.

Forgot to mention, but for anyone planning making one, I did discover a few things that may be useful:

- assuming you make the leg first, then the vice face (beam), mark the distance from centre of guide mortice to centre of screw hole. Make that a round number, and write it down somewhere safe. It will make life a lot easier when you come to making the holes in the vice-face. The reason I say centre of the guide mortice is the guide should be tight on width, but well-clear in height (maybe 3mm top and bottom). So measuring from top of mortice gets quite confusing, and you may end up paring a bit off mortice or guide later anyway. So, centre-to-centre and tattooed somewhere.

- make the hole in leg for screw nil clearance. It will go a very long way to minimising racking, and if it ends up too tight it's easy to take fractions off... can't put them back on of course. The hole in the beam needs to be oversize though - as the beam (face) needs freedom to tilt off vertical in use - that is very important as it gives a range of closing without moving the pin all the time.

- seal the guide with anything hard and nil-build ( a wipe-on), then scrub a candle over it.

- I suggest 2" stock for the face - I suspect less will be a bit bendy under the screw pressure.

If I think of anything else I'll post. And you might gather I didn't note the measurement between the 2 holes... we got there but I sure wish I had.

p.s. Kinsella - no plan sorry - I sketched some of the bits on the shop blackboard but otherwise did it in my head. If I could bother to learn Sketch-up ... but I could sketch it out old-style, pm me if interested in any particular bits.

 

[jumps]

having looked at the vice I have to agree that it's fundamentally efficient in operation and clearly economical relative to the alternatives.

I also agree with the inference from Jacob's post that it's more about where it's positioned on a bench than if you have one - however as to whether front or side is a simple decision; nope. it has to depend on the other dimensions and environment ie what works for you in your shop.

I was surprised at the underlying power - excellent for larger pieces and when the vice is attached to solid benches (this one was very solid for the overall bulk)

I suspect that many would be extremely happy with this as a main bench, there's little it couldn't handle - but then again it doesn't have a well

This isn't an unbiased observation - somehow I ended up leaving with 'a bench' in the back of the car ? Can you believe anyone running out of space with too many benches in the shop?

 

[xy mosian]

I recently followed a recomendation to visit Instructables web site. Of course I looked at the Workshop category and the first thing I saw? http://www.instructables.com/id/Leg-Vise-Threadless/ instructions for making a threadless leg vice. Of course it is no real match for those shown earlier in this thread, but suggests a way in which a vice such as this might be experienced at little cost.

xy

 

[condeesteso]

Yes xy, they are potentially very basic clamping devices. I made mine with bits lying around anyway, but you could imagine using parts from an old clamp / cramp etc.
Here's an update on how it's working.
Not unique to a leg vice of course, but I really like the unimpeded walk along a board like this:

And you can't do this with a Record, can you. Imagine sawing the cheeks on end of a long board, (obviously it can be inclined steeper too) - it's quick, easy and very solid:

Must say not a great fan of the Record (mines a 52 1/2) - heavy, clunky, they do rack both vertically and horizontally - but they are quick to use. My leg-vice is only slightly slower, racks horizontally a little, certainly no more than the Record, and any vertical racking in the leg vice is always under your control and is actually a benefit. The grip is astounding anyway, but if you ever needed, you can tweak the cheek dead vertical by applying slightly more or less screw pressure (the beam bending just a fraction). I reckon this is a damn fine vice indeed. And before you knock it, try it :wink:

 

[tool613]

Douglas

I very nice job on the bench vise. love the jointery.

I wish I had something to go by when I built mine but I was not on the net yet.
here are some pic of the out feed table on my 10" saw i made a vise for. Like your i use a steel thread for the main. The table leg is bur oak( I think that's your brown) and the vise is a half bullet of apple. I did run the vise to the floor and put a leveling foot on it to glide the floor and let me hit down on the end. The wood thread is off an Ikea stool that the sold a few year back($25) and it is adjusted by my foot to keep the vice pressure at the top.Found that at the tip.

I put one of those stops on top and it has been useful. I made a cut away to let my foot ajust the vice to pinch at the top or clamp tapers. Its great for drawers.

jack

 

[marcros]

some good ideas there Jack. I like the stop in the top and the adjustment wheel in the bottom. good stuff!

 

[xy mosian]

Douglas, I wouldn't presume to knock that type of vice at all, as you say not until I've tried it. I agree with the 'standard' Record not being really suitable to hold timber on the slope as shown. Personally I'd probably clamp a piece like that flat on the top of the bench, or sawing horse, with a holdfast, g-cramp, or similar, possibly just by hand, and then saw. But that's just my way of working.

Jack, I think your variation of the leg vice is interesting. I particularly like the source of the thread.

xy

 

[condeesteso]

That's a neat innovation jack, the Ikea stool bit - very good!
XY... didn't mean you!!, and I don't mind at all if anyone doesn't like them, but it's better to try it first. That's sort of what I meant.

 

[xy mosian]

I didn't think you did mean me particularly Douglas, no problems here
The only, very very gentle gripe, I have is that you keep coming up with new things I aught to try out. I have difficulty keeping up with my own ideas of what I should be looking at. Keep it up! You exercise my mind regularly, and it needs the exercise.

xy

 

[jimi43]

That's a neat innovation jack, the Ikea stool bit - very good!
XY... didn't mean you!!, and I don't mind at all if anyone doesn't like them, but it's better to try it first. That's sort of what I meant.

I'm getting really worried now Douglas...either you have tapped into my cerebral cortex or we must have been separated at birth... :mrgreen:

I was just about to say how wonderfully innovative the IKEA footstool source of the screw thread was and lo and behold...there you go again! :mrgreen:

Jack....I simply love the raw nature of the leg...wonderful stuff.

I'm not going to build one of course...not...not...NOT!!! Ok! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[condeesteso]

Actually Jack - I needed to look a bit closer - looks like the Ikea is a wood thread, how did you cut the threads to match?
I like the whacking big wedged tenon in back stretcher, and yes I reckon we call that brown oak (affected by beefsteak fungus I believe).
Then I started looking for the Wadkins... they are subtle but some of 'em are there :wink:

 

[tool613]

Actually Jack - I needed to look a bit closer - looks like the Ikea is a wood thread, how did you cut the threads to match?
I like the whacking big wedged tenon in back stretcher, and yes I reckon we call that brown oak (affected by beefsteak fungus I believe).
Then I started looking for the Wadkins... they are subtle but some of 'em are there :wink:

That's what is great about the Ikea thread the round disk is part of the seat. there is even another one on the chair that you could dovetail into the leg. The Ikea chair was rubbish but it does make for a cheep thread. The wood is beech I think. there were still the lathe centers in the thread so i put it on the lathe and turned a shouldered tenon for the vise face. Easy peasy.

here a pic with wadkin at its edges

jack

 

[condeesteso]

ah!, Wadkins... looking very good. And I'll keep an eye out for one of those Ikea stools - freecycle over here may do it.

 

[No skills]

Just ordered a cheapish vice screw, be interesting to see if I can bodge one onto my bench build

 

[condeesteso]

Keep us posted Skills - and which screw was it. One day I may hang a leg vice off the end of the new small bench, just for the hell of it :lol: