wrightclan
Established Member
Noel":af2hiyum said:
Unlike some...
Mcluma":af2hiyum said:
Le Tour de France
- Thread starter Paul Chapman
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Unlike some...
wrightclan
Established Member
Noel":2r8bemyf said:
In the current climate, it's getting hard to believe anyone. However, Landis truly does not strike me as someone who would even consider it. I think I can be honest with myself and anyone else in saying that such a view of Landis is not based on him being a fellow American. He just strikes me as one of the most straightforward guys in any sport.
Unfortunately, even if he proves his innocence, his victory will be tainted forever. Especially in light of recent events.
Brad
Paul Chapman
Established Member
wrightclan":3rvsafn7 said:
And over the years some of the testing authorities have been shown to be rather incompetent, which has further complicated and confused the issue :?
Paul
wrightclan
Established Member
Paul Chapman":1hmcu4io said:
Even the WADA website says that the method used to test for T/E ratio is an inaccurate method. Also, the lab in question has been sanctioned in recent years for unethical behaviour.
Brad
Paul Chapman
Established Member
wrightclan":3fv20wtu said:
Well, there you go. Strikes me that all this press hype before the facts are known does nothing but damage individuals and sport in general. Everyone (the media, the testing labs as well as anyone involved in any illegal drugs) is just making a fast buck at other people's expense.
Paul
wrightclan
Established Member
In addition to the inaccuracy of the current testing methodology, apparently, they just reduced the threshold this year for a positive t/e ratio from 6:1 to 4:1. Now, I'm no scientist or lab technician, but I do know a bit about statistical analysis. If you have a methodology which is already somewhat unreliable; do you not increase that unreliability exponentially, when you reduce the threshold by a third?
Brad
Brad
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And this pile of nonsense from Pat McQuaid really doesn't help matters:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_s ... 223238.stm
This is about the 100th time this mantra has been aired either from the UCI, the Tour organisers or some other cycling head honcha since the '98 Festina scandal.
But what really gets me is McQuaid's further condemation of Landis. Nothing has been proven yet. He is still the 2006 TDF winner, he is still a member of Phonak (albeit suspended).
As Brad and Paul and others have mentioned, the full story is not known and until it is all this condemation by the press, UCI etc is totally wrong.
It's time the UCI, WADA etc get their own house in order. Then they will be able to attack and eventually eliminate doping in cycling.
Noel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_s ... 223238.stm
This is about the 100th time this mantra has been aired either from the UCI, the Tour organisers or some other cycling head honcha since the '98 Festina scandal.
But what really gets me is McQuaid's further condemation of Landis. Nothing has been proven yet. He is still the 2006 TDF winner, he is still a member of Phonak (albeit suspended).
As Brad and Paul and others have mentioned, the full story is not known and until it is all this condemation by the press, UCI etc is totally wrong.
It's time the UCI, WADA etc get their own house in order. Then they will be able to attack and eventually eliminate doping in cycling.
Noel
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Well said, Noel. Every time we get this - all the people in charge running for cover, saying "It's nothing to do with me mate, but I'll sort it out". Then they wait until the story dies down and do nothing. Meanwhile, people like Floyd Landis, whether innocent or guilty, have their livelihood taken away from them.
I reckon it was a cracking Tour and until someone PROVES he was cheating, Floyd Landis is still a hero in my book - so there :wink:
Paul
I reckon it was a cracking Tour and until someone PROVES he was cheating, Floyd Landis is still a hero in my book - so there :wink:
Paul
wrightclan
Established Member
Just read something that puts this into perspective. Earlier I mentioned that the t/e/ ratio deemed positive had been reduced from 6:1 to 4:1. Apparently, a few years ago, it was 10:1. East German bodybuilders had been tested at 100:1! :shock:
So if Landis tested positive, it could be that his level was 4.1:1 and he could well test regularly at 3.9:1. That's the problem--no one knows, not even him or his doctors. They are never given analytical results--only negative or positive.
The more I read, the more dubious I am of the system, in particular in relation to Testosterone (a lot of other tests are much more black and white). I'm more and more coming to the view that Landis is the unwitting victim of a very unfortunate set of circumstances.
Brad
So if Landis tested positive, it could be that his level was 4.1:1 and he could well test regularly at 3.9:1. That's the problem--no one knows, not even him or his doctors. They are never given analytical results--only negative or positive.
The more I read, the more dubious I am of the system, in particular in relation to Testosterone (a lot of other tests are much more black and white). I'm more and more coming to the view that Landis is the unwitting victim of a very unfortunate set of circumstances.
Brad
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Here's the view of Paul Kimmage:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 41,00.html
Makes interesting reading, especially from an ex pro's point of view. Not sure I understand his reasoning for judging Landis as he does.
Noel
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 41,00.html
Makes interesting reading, especially from an ex pro's point of view. Not sure I understand his reasoning for judging Landis as he does.
Noel
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Very interesting, Noel :? I think the clever journalists always write in a way in which they they are able to say "Told you so", whatever the outcome :wink:
Most of the debate seems to be centred on the fact that Landis blew up one day, then came back and thrashed everyone the next. They seem to be taking the view that's just not possible. Well I don't buy that and I think it was entirely possible.
When I think back to my early cycle racing days in the 1960s, most riders took the view that you could only produce a good performance once a week. Over holiday weekends, like Easter, Whitsun, etc where they would ride several time trials, they would produce a good performance in the first one and lesser performances in the subsequent races, citing the fact that they were knackered from the first race to justify their subsequent poor performances. 10 years later riders like Alf Engers (remember him or are you too young?) would produce blistering performances three days in a row, probably going faster each day.
The reason is, of course, training became more focused and scientific. When you are really fit your recovery rate is extremely rapid. Look at the top 6-day riders. I remember watching people like Peter Post and Patrick Sercu (probably the best 6-day pairing ever) produce blistering performances night after night, including madisons and motor-paced races, where they would go faster and faster as the days went on.
When ever there is any sort of scandal, out come the armchair critics (I'm not including Paul Kimmage in that as he is an ex-pro rider) who all have a point of view, but many have never ridden a bike, let alone have any idea what it is like to ride up mountains like the Alps.
If Landis did cheat then I will have no sympathy with him. But I'm not convinced he did based on his performance. It is entirely possible for a very fit athlete to recover from a very bad day in the way he did and blow away the rest of the field. I'm still happy to wait until we have a proper conclusion based on accurate scientific evidence.
Paul
Most of the debate seems to be centred on the fact that Landis blew up one day, then came back and thrashed everyone the next. They seem to be taking the view that's just not possible. Well I don't buy that and I think it was entirely possible.
When I think back to my early cycle racing days in the 1960s, most riders took the view that you could only produce a good performance once a week. Over holiday weekends, like Easter, Whitsun, etc where they would ride several time trials, they would produce a good performance in the first one and lesser performances in the subsequent races, citing the fact that they were knackered from the first race to justify their subsequent poor performances. 10 years later riders like Alf Engers (remember him or are you too young?) would produce blistering performances three days in a row, probably going faster each day.
The reason is, of course, training became more focused and scientific. When you are really fit your recovery rate is extremely rapid. Look at the top 6-day riders. I remember watching people like Peter Post and Patrick Sercu (probably the best 6-day pairing ever) produce blistering performances night after night, including madisons and motor-paced races, where they would go faster and faster as the days went on.
When ever there is any sort of scandal, out come the armchair critics (I'm not including Paul Kimmage in that as he is an ex-pro rider) who all have a point of view, but many have never ridden a bike, let alone have any idea what it is like to ride up mountains like the Alps.
If Landis did cheat then I will have no sympathy with him. But I'm not convinced he did based on his performance. It is entirely possible for a very fit athlete to recover from a very bad day in the way he did and blow away the rest of the field. I'm still happy to wait until we have a proper conclusion based on accurate scientific evidence.
Paul
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I agree with all that you've said Paul. After all, how well and how quick you can recover is a direct reflection of how fit you are. I normally respect Kimmage's work and I'm assuming that he feels, with his experience as a TDF rider, he can spot a "juiced" rider from 100yds. In this case I don't agree with him. There have been many instances where a rider has been dropped because of lack of energy, bonking (where the rider cannot sustain his power output because of dehydration or not enough food) or plain knackeredness and comes back on the next stage and finishes on the podium.
I still have faith in Landis and he was the fitted and strongest rider on this year's event. But I've been wondering why the peleton did not chase him down? Did they suspect something? Or was it due to a case of "forget him, he's 8 minutes down" or was it sheer incompetence?
I sincerely hope he is clean and gets through this one way or another.
Noel.
Patrick Sercu? The 2nd best rider out of Belguim. Alf Engers? Before my time I'm afraid.
I still have faith in Landis and he was the fitted and strongest rider on this year's event. But I've been wondering why the peleton did not chase him down? Did they suspect something? Or was it due to a case of "forget him, he's 8 minutes down" or was it sheer incompetence?
I sincerely hope he is clean and gets through this one way or another.
Noel.
Patrick Sercu? The 2nd best rider out of Belguim. Alf Engers? Before my time I'm afraid.
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Yes, Patrick Sercu's forte was the track - he was World Sprint Champion several times. He was a typical Belgian - no sense of humour but rode like lightning. The pairing of Sercu and Dutchman Peter Post was probably ideal because they were opposites - Post was all humour as well as lightning speed. Post was sponsored by Gazelle Cycles and Wilhelm II cigars and it was amusing seeing him in his trackside cabin puffing on a cigar before returning to the track to thrash the opposition :shock:
Alf Engers was a brilliant time-trialist. I think I am right in saying he was the first UK cyclist to ride a 25 mile time trial inside 50 minutes.
Paul
Alf Engers was a brilliant time-trialist. I think I am right in saying he was the first UK cyclist to ride a 25 mile time trial inside 50 minutes.
Paul
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Noel, I found a piece on Alf Engers ("King Alf") which you might find interesting. There are some pictures and two links to the text of a speech he gave to the Pedal Club which gives a bit of an insight to the good old days :wink: http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/engers.htm
Paul
Paul
wrightclan
Established Member
If you're interested, look here http://www.veloriders.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42041 for my rant on a cycling forum. I'm known as exracer on that forum.
Brad
Brad
Mcluma
Established Member
Correct, i have an open mind, but i know when things are not right
and as i suspected al allonge,
the man is dodgy
The high concentrations of testosterone is of a syntethical external source
and more important, Landis has not even asked for the contra expertise on his B sample, so what does that tell you.
I rest my case
and as i suspected al allonge,
the man is dodgy
The high concentrations of testosterone is of a syntethical external source
and more important, Landis has not even asked for the contra expertise on his B sample, so what does that tell you.
I rest my case
wrightclan
Established Member
Mcluma":2utva171 said:
An open mind does not rest its case, solely on opinion.
Brad
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Many thanks for that link, Brad. Your statistical analysis is very interesting. What is also interesting is that many of the top sportsmen do differ from the average. I seem to remember that Eddy Merckx has a naturally low pulse rate and Miguel Indurain has a naturally large lung capacity - as does Matthew Pinsent the rower. So it's quite normal for some of the top sports people not to be normal - which, of course, is why they can do what they do. There are often unusual factors that explain exceptional performances.
But, blimey, some people on that site do jump to conclusions :shock: I prefer your more measured statistical approach - keep up the good work and thanks again for the link :wink:
Paul
But, blimey, some people on that site do jump to conclusions :shock: I prefer your more measured statistical approach - keep up the good work and thanks again for the link :wink:
Paul
Mcluma
Established Member
Wrightclan / Exracer
I am not opinioned, I state the facts
The fact is - his urine sample contained traces of syntactical testosterone of an external source
I am not opinioned, I state the facts
The fact is - his urine sample contained traces of syntactical testosterone of an external source
