kitchen fitting help

[davidc1075]

Can anyone help me with details of a supplier of good quality by reasonably priced kitchen worktop (if there is such a thing). A colleague at work has been quoted £600 to fit new worktops in their kitchen. It is a simple u shape with 2.2m x 1.5 x 2.2 runs requiring the hop and sink to be cut out. The worktop 3 @ 3m cost £270 from Wickes and so its costing them a lot of money just for new worktops. I have fitted quite a few worktops for friends and I haven't charged for these, but £600 sounds very steep. They do live in London but even I can do this in half a day and I will be taking my time, am I in the wrong job and should I take up kitchen fitting. I would be grateful for help sourcing a good worktop supplier and comments about the cost of fitting.

 

[JFC]

£600 doesn't sound steep to me although i wouldn't be fitting wicks worktops so you could maybe add £100 on the worktop costs . I would also involve a corgi reg plumber to do the gas hob ? and the sink change over and i assuming they are having a masons mitre cut rather than a nasty jointing strip .Id book a days work for it and the plumber would have to make two visits .

 

[Scrit]

Can anyone help me with details of a supplier of good quality by reasonably priced kitchen worktop (if there is such a thing).

Contact Pfleiderer and ask them who supplies Duropal worktops in your area. They are sufficiently better than the builders yard or DIY warehouse specials to make them worth buying In my opinion and that of many others they are about the best post-formed top generally available). Other good makes include Resopal (Wilsonart), Bushboard, Prima (Formica), etc. For a kitchen like your friends you'll need two lengths (almost all trade worktops come in 4m lengths) and it shouldn't cost you any more than the Wickes, in fact possibly somewhat less. The cut-outs are done by drilling out the corners and cutting with a jigsaw and down-cut blades - the round corners are to ensure that you don't have a corner for cracks to propagate from. You'll also need a decent-quality 3HP plunge router and a decent quality mason's mitre jig with a TCT-RT cutter as well as a scribing tool, etc.

You may think that you can do the job in a half-day but have you taken into account removing the old worktop and working around existing tiling - without damaging it? This can be difficult, even more so if you are replacing a 1980s 30mm top with a new 40mm one. And a fitter would have to disconnect, remove, reinstall, reseal, reconnect and test everything which comes out. Things wear out and break, especially plumbing fittings, so I think the price quoted may be taking some of these factors into consideration. I've done a number of these jobs, including replacement of composite worktops with solid wood and I'd probably budget a full day at least to do a full replacement and these days I'd charge to remove and dispose of the old top, too - as I have to pay both the Environment Agency and the Council (waste licences) and the skip contractor for the privelege of removing my waste!

As to the price quoted, I cannot say for London, but remember that a tradesman has expenses such as van, advertising, accountants, etc to meet and a trained man is worth a bit more than a YTS kid on minimum wage. He may well need a second man for part or all of the day as worktop refits in situ frequently require two men working together. Without seeing the job I personally wouldn't want to say whether that price is right, but have you tried getting 3 quotes from fitters and comparing them? And if you get a cheap quote can he provide references?

If you were in the NW I'd even offer to do you a quote :wink: and if that £600 is for fitting only (not supply and fit) I'd possibly drive to London and do the job myself!...... :lol:

Regards

Scrit

 

[tim]

David

Have you seen the job? Its all too easy for people to say 'its only simple' and then turn up to find that they haven't thought to tell you about x, y and z.

£270 isn't a lot of money for worktops and I'm not sure that £600 is so huge (a bit steep maybe) but is there tiling implications, removals etc as Scrit says. Plus if its not that big a job - which for a fitter it isn't then there will be a base cost to do the job making it worth while. I had a similar issue today - next door neighbour to a client who lives 20miles from me wants one small cabinet made - I knew that it wasn't going to make sense once I'd worked out my costs (and it didn't to them either :wink: ).

If you can do it in half a day offer them the option.

Cheers

Tim

 

[johnelliott]

I would want to see that job before quoting, but I know it wouldn't be less than £900
John

Edited to say-I've re-read the first post, and it seems that the price is for fit only. In that case my price would start at £600.

One point I would make is that this job has been discussed as a simple fitting job, no one so far has mentioned the quality of the fit. Will all the cut edges be thoroughy sealed with the appropriate material? Will the joints be tight and barely visible. Will there be a discernible step between the adjacent pieces at the corners? What if one of the worktops has a void under the laminate at a joint?

Rather more to it than just 'fitting a worktop'

John

 

[Darryl]

I used to fit kitchens and still do the odd one now and then.
£600 sounds a little steep just for the worktop, even for a top end melamine worktop, as Scit and Tim say there are going to be implications, I would plan and do a proper costing first...

 

[davidc1075]

Thanks for all your replies, I should have given more info first however. The kitchen is being re plastered and so all the tiles are being removed the plasterer is doing this and he has quoted a good price for his work, the boiler is also being replaced so he will also be reconnecting the hob the oven is electric and won't have to be removed during the refit.
I learnt how to cut worktops at college this was only one evening but since then I have fitted half a dozen after getting a trend jig for fitting a friends kitchen.
I just thought that £600 was steep for cutting the worktops and fitting the sink etc. Another friend paid £240 for two cut one male one female and he had to swallow the price as he didn't have a jig nor knew how to use it and didn't realise I could have done it for him for a few beers.
Thanks for the info about the suppliers I will look into them, if I can source a 4m work I may be able to get away with one of these and a 3m.
I have fitted a Wickes worktop for my next door neighbour and it wasn't very good quality.

 

[Scrit]

David

There isn't normally a choice of "one 4m and one 3m" - you'll either have to buy 2 x 4m OR 3 x 3m. If you are doing this sort of job, just remember that from a tradesman's perspective it is immaterial whether a job takes 4 hours or 10 hours - for many of the trades that's a full day gone (once you take into account travel time on top) and we have to charge accordingly. Also remember that we have to be insured, etc. which you are not. I am not condoning your original quote, but manytimes it is possible to quote for a job and find that the potential customer has unrealistically low price expectations based on what they can buy cheap Chinese furniture in IKEA for, rather than how much they spend per hour to have their BMW serviced.

Scrit

 

[ike]

David,

Just the worktop - U kitchen, 2 mason mitre joints + a sink. I could do it in a day - albeit a pretty busy day. So just for a days work, even factoring in the overheads, £600 sounds pretty steep to me!

My sis had her basic kitchen (base units, tops, cupboards and sink but excluding tiling) fitted complete (average sized U layout, nothing unusual, exceptional etc) by a professional, independent fitter for £600 (bout 2-1/2 days), and no one could fault the standard of work. Electrics/ gas were additional though.

London I expect, is generally pricier for most things compared to out in the sticks, but even so...just for the worktop. :shock:

Ike

 

[wizer]

We were quote £3000 for Magnet to fit our kitchen and it's tiny!

 

[frank]

when i fitted the lads kitchen the place where he got the work tops from done a cutting service i think they charged about £35 for a masons cut ,the tops cost about £100 each so i think it was well worth it ,(one slip and ohh £££)

frank

 

[davidc1075]

I hope no one gets the idea that I mind people making a good living from woodworking, I have so often heard on this forum people saying that woodworking doesn't pay. I travel into London each day and don't get paid for it. 4 hour round trip 8 hour day at work £3500 per year rail ticket and get paid £484 after tax so I just thought that £600 for a 4 hour or 8 hour day was expensive even allowing for his tax insurance van tools etc....

I wish I could get a job that if I do four hours work I get paid for a full day

If he is on £600 a day thats £3000 for a five day week and if he has 4 weeks unpaid holiday a year thats £144k a year wonder where he goes on holiday?

Don't take the above seriously only having a rant, my wife does call me Victor Meldew.

 

[DomValente]

Well if that's how you see it David why don't you do it and just charge, say, £100.00 .
You can't say that this man makes 144Klet me assure you we do not make £600.00 pounds every day. You travel into London every day and sit in your warm office and whatever happens you'll get paid at the end of the week, we are never guaranteed work and I suspect that this chap has fitted furniture for people and made a lot less than 600 pounds because of difficulties put in front of him by accident or clients who tend to be economical with the truth.

There, I feel better now :wink:

 

[mr]

I travel into London each day and don't get paid for it. 4 hour round trip 8 hour day at work £3500 per year rail ticket and get paid £484 after tax.

By my maths which is famously poor that puts you in the region of £114 K PA after tax and 5 weeks holiday a year. I think Id be happy to travel to London daily from here (Devon) for that kind of money. But then Id never be happy sat in the office all day, it would never work.

 

[johnelliott]

Well if that's how you see it David why don't you do it and just charge, say, £100.00 .
You can't say that this man makes 144Klet me assure you we do not make £600.00 pounds every day. You travel into London every day and sit in your warm office and whatever happens you'll get paid at the end of the week, we are never guaranteed work and I suspect that this chap has fitted furniture for people and made a lot less than 600 pounds because of difficulties put in front of him by accident or clients who tend to be economical with the truth.

There, I feel better now :wink:

I'm glad you picked this one up, Dom, I was tempted to have a nibble a it myself, but declined for fear of being thought a curmudgeon.

Most people who are employed have simply no idea what it costs to run a business, and what it costs to attract the work in the first place. For instance, I spend £1130 in advertising alone, every month, and I could do with upping that a bit.

John

 

[engineer one]

two thoughts,
the congestion charge is £8.00 per day,
and my local guy who makes worktop cuts, charges £75.00 for the first cut, then about £25 per cut thereafter, but if he screws up, he at least sorts it.
not sure that this helps,but i tend to agree with others it seems a decent price for london
paul :wink:

 

[davidc1075]

To Mr, have you left the lid off the glue when they were using the calculator?
£484 per week x 52 =25168 per year after tax. Would you get out of bed at 5.45 every day and travel for two hours sit in a warm office for 8 and travel home for two hours on London transport for that money?

John when you asked for someone to make you 30 handles for your kitchen at £100 were you also taking all these factors into consideration, 10 mins each maybe 5 hours work, less tax, insurance, advertising electric, tooling etc all for £100?

 

[mr]

I presumed you were comparing like for like, daily rate for daily rate not your weekly rate against a daily rate. You never stated otherwise.

 

[johnelliott]

John when you asked for someone to make you 30 handles for your kitchen at £100 were you also taking all these factors into consideration, 10 mins each maybe 5 hours work, less tax, insurance, advertising electric, tooling etc all for £100?

Well, I certainly wasn't taking the advertising into consideration!
If the turner had been advertising then I wouldn't have needed to contact him or her through this forum
If it isn't already obvious, which apparently it isn't, I was deliberately offering a person who was not operating as a woodturning business a chance to have a go at these knobs. If I could have waited a bit longer then I could have had them from the people who normally do my turnings, pillars and that sort of thing, and for somewhat less that £100.
So it also wouldn't be necessary for the person to declare the tax either, as they wouldn't be operating at a profit anyway.

John

 

[tim]

David

The simple truth is that we can all find cheaper people to do the work - and certainly if you have the skills then its difficult to put an objective value on a product. I sometimes have that problem when pricing stuff up. The fact is that if you are going to do it for your pal, then you are prepared effectively to donate your tool wear and tear and skills for almost nothing and you are choosing to do so. I regularly do that with pals when its something that I'd enjoy and its not about the money but being a mate ie helping build (read: build all!) climbing forts for their kids etc.

What happens though if you mess up one of the worktops? Should you buy another and replace it - should your mate pay for it and accept it as a cost?

Its up to you really.

For comparison, our septic tank needs repairing - I have the tools and the knowhow but I'm sure as hell going to throw cash at the problem til it goes away

BTW re calculations based on daily rate: £600 is not his wage but his turnover. So even if you did the calcs as you did, his turnover would be £144k. In reality, the rule of thumb is that there are only 1000 billable hours in the year ie 50% of the total working ones available. Therefore his t/o (not his wage) is closer to £52k ie not even above the vat threshold - in which case his take home is not going to be more than yours - with all the risk of self employment.


Cheers

Tim