Info on London-style dovetails wanted

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I am looking for info on London-style dovetails - anything about their history, if they fit into any particular school of woodworking, who promotes their inclusion currently, and your opinion of them.

Further, what type of chisels do you use in making them, should you do so?

Any reference sources to London=style dovetails you can suggest?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Never head of them. What are they?

PS googled and only found your own site Derek which seems to show an utterly conventional drawer DT.
I think of them as single kerf DTs in that the pinholes are cut in the same kerf, which looks nice and fine and is also quick and easy.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

On the right side, Jacob ...

Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... rawer.html

Dovetails like Alan Peters made them

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Dovetails like Alan Peters made them

Regards from Perth

Derek

You mean dovetails like I (and almost everybody else) makes them?

What do you want to know?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Jacob

That is very nice work. =D>

Have a look at my first post.

This is how I prefer to make my drawers. Carcases get wider dovetails. The two styles of dovetails require a different approach in my experience. Wide tails are not difficult to chisel out as there is room to wiggle a small chisel into the corners of the slope. On the narrow tails, which can be as little as 1/8" wide, this is not possible. I favour chisels which are ground so that the shoulders are minimal. I know others do the same.

Aussies tend to follow the British school of woodworking. Over on the US side of the Pond drawer sides tend to be a lot thicker than we tend to use, and the dovetails tend to be chunkier as a rule, so it seems.

So I am curious what the history is on "London dovetails" (as I have come to know them), and how they are made in the traditional manner.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Modernist]

A few points Derek

I don't understand how you get 3mm tails?

Does the London pattern refer to the wide tails or single saw cut between them. From videos I've seen they were cut as a set much like you are sawing a pair on your blog, they would cut a whole set at a time.

You drawer sides do not look too thin. I suppose it depends on the timber but trad work in oak or similar might be 1/4"on fine work.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I don't understand how you get 3mm tails?

Hi Brian

It depends on the ratio that is used - 1:8 will create a skinny dovetail. I generally use 1:7

The dovetail on Jacob's drawer looks about 1:6

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[János]

Hello,

I know these as "needle pin dovetails". Here, in my country, and in the continental European tradition, these narrow pins are seldom used, mostly on jewellery boxes, and secretaire desks, and other highly decorative or ornate items. They are made in exactly the same way as wider ones, but the marking out is trickier. So this is a case for "pins first" work order....

Have a nice day,

János

 

[Jacob]

A few points Derek

I don't understand how you get 3mm tails?......

Derek means 3mm pin holes (or pins). It's easier to think in terms of pins and pinholes.
I've looked at quite a few

starting with the pin holes;
1 all marked with a deep incised or cut shoulder line (easier to trim the shoulders straight from a cut line)
2 all cut in a single kerf (one cut on one side, then the other starting in the same kerf - keeps them neat,
3 all done freehand (you can tell from the slightly varying angles and spaces between),
4 all over cut - usually a lot on the outside of the drawer and just a nick on the inside (makes it easy to take out the corners as you have already sawn them out)
5 not done in a batch as so often shown (very difficult to align them and then to do the sloping over cut as a second pass)

then the pins:
1 shoulder marked same as above
2 marked from the pin holes
3 overcut very slightly if at all
4 undercut in the shoulder so to be tight at the visible join

gradients very variable from 1/14 to 1/2 (in different pieces, not the same one!)

PS just seen János's post. Pinholes first for me! Same design pretty universal for drawer sides in UK. Finer work: finer gradient.

 

[flounder]

Jacob, what do you use to mark the pins with through the pin holes? I always struggle to find a method that fits in cleanly when the hole is so small?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, what do you use to mark the pins with through the pin holes? I always struggle to find a method that fits in cleanly when the hole is so small?

X-acto type craft knife with a square end chisel blade. Single bevel. I made my own from a bit of old saw blade. As long as it is same as or thinner than your DT blade. Poke it down the pinhole and give it a light tap. Also handy as a chisel for cleaning the sides and into the corners.

 

[Henry Disston]

X-acto type craft knife with a square end chisel blade. Single bevel. I made my own from a bit of old saw blade. As long as it is same as or thinner than your DT blade. Poke it down the pinhole and give it a light tap. Also handy as a chisel for cleaning the sides and into the corners.

:shock: I just buy the #18 blades. Glad to see someone else using an Xacto knife.

 

[yetloh]

On the right side, Jacob ...

Reference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ ... rawer.html

Dovetails like Alan Peters made them

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Interesting that you have made them wider at the back. I tend to use the same (narrow pin) arrangement at front and back. Also, I use a scalpel for all marking out, unless it is guaged, of course. After a scalpel, I find all marking knives feel clumsy including the Blue Spruce model I acquired recently for very little - beautiful but still clumsy. Must get round to putting it on ebay.

Jim

 

[Jacob]

....Interesting that you have made them wider at the back.

Again - that is how they are (nearly) all done traditionally, so it must be right. The blind DT at the front of the drawer relies on glue and close fit to keep it together. The through DT at the back is much easier to make but has much less glue area (the back is also thinner than the front) and so relies more on the strength of the pins to keep it together.

 

[János]

Hello,

Perhaps Jacob is right about the difference in the front and back layout. But in a drawer, most of the load is on the front dovetails, so the narrow ones would held things together equally well. There is a more practical answer for the difference; the back dovetails are seldom seen in use, as you rarely remove the drawers fully. So do not worth the effort to make them "cute". A scratch awl was the traditional way to mark out the pins (in my country), as the narrow and slender tool is capable to reach into very tight places. Cranked ones can be used on lapped dovetails too.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek,

Interesting that you have made them wider at the back. I tend to use the same (narrow pin) arrangement at front and back. Also, I use a scalpel for all marking out, unless it is guaged, of course. After a scalpel, I find all marking knives feel clumsy including the Blue Spruce model I acquired recently for very little - beautiful but still clumsy. Must get round to putting it on ebay.

Hi Jim

For really slim tail-to-pin boards I use the saw blade for marking out. For this it is best to do so before you remove any waste.

I am surprised at your comment about the Blue Spruce marking knife - not that I have even handled one. By reputation it has a slim blade. Generally I can get one of my own marking knives into the kerf of a standard dovetail saw, but the thinner bladed versions are a bit trickier.

These are soon to be manufactured by Chris Vesper.

Perhaps Jacob is right about the difference in the front and back layout. But in a drawer, most of the load is on the front dovetails, so the narrow ones would held things together equally well. There is a more practical answer for the difference; the back dovetails are seldom seen in use, as you rarely remove the drawers fully. So do not worth the effort to make them "cute".

János, spot on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

....

Hi Jim

For really slim tail-to-pin boards I use the saw blade for marking out. For this it is best to do so before you remove any waste.

Surely that puts your mark on the wrong side of the line?
I don't rate a knife in these circs. It's too easy to go off the line, as you can't really see it at the bottom of the pin hole. Also it's easy to slice off a bit of the side by mistake. I find the Xacto type chisel much more reliable

Perhaps Jacob is right about the difference in the front and back layout. But in a drawer, most of the load is on the front dovetails, so the narrow ones would held things together equally well. There is a more practical answer for the difference; the back dovetails are seldom seen in use, as you rarely remove the drawers fully. So do not worth the effort to make them "cute".

János, spot on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It'd be very tiny if you did a single kerf pinhole for pins on a thin end-board less than half the thickness of the drawer front. It's for strength. You could make them "cute" if you wanted but they'd still have to be beefed up a bit.

 

[Dombey]

London Stylee!
OK I'm very new here and saw your Dovetail question... I have only ever come accross 3 basically traditional dovetail types... as follows "open" as used on drawer backs, "stopped" or "closed" as drawer fronts and the most difficult "secret or Mitred" as used on Bureau tops so as to look like a mitre but very difficult to do unless you know how to use a dovetail saw.... I never use a template as they were always done to eye hence always odd sized... OK so theres my first contribution for what its worth! I suppose being a traditional cabinet maker I could be wrong though sure I will be corrected?

Two Dovetails are always stronger than one..... you have enough width and will look far neater.. !

Dombey...

 

[Jacob]

.... ...
Two Dovetails are always stronger than one..... you have enough width and will look far neater.. !

Dombey...

Dunno what about this one all on it's own:

On a very old and heavy piece of french furniture. "Sans culotte" style perhaps?

 

[mtr1]

Looks like a rural piece, and the tradesman was cutting down on time. The iron nail is a nice touch, looks horrible overall but functional. Doesn't look that old to me either.