Infill component planes...designed & manufactured by Hol

[dchenard]

To me it seems that doing kits is not a good idea for Karl. He can't control what happens once the kits leave his shop, so if some of them are shoddily put together then sold on eBay or elsewhere, the Holtey name will be tarnished.

My personal opinion is that in Karl's case I would not take that chance. It takes years to establish a reputation, and seconds to destroy it...

If Karl is intent on making kits no matter what, I would humbly suggest that he uses a different trade name for the kits. Then, seeing "Holtey" on a plane remains a guarantee that this is "the real thing".

Just my two pence,

DC

 

[Jake]

I can't believe that people have swooped so fast to discouraging this. I would never in a million years buy a real Holtey, but I could imagine possibly buying one of these in a thousand years. The difference is clear, in collector terms, because the plane body mark clearly marks it as a kit and not the real thing. I really can't understand why some many people would try and discourage KH from spreading a bit wider this way - unless perhaps there are personal but not yet specified fears of dilution of value at stake?

 

[MikeW]

To me it seems that doing kits is not a good idea for Karl. He can't control what happens once the kits leave his shop, so if some of them are shoddily put together then sold on eBay or elsewhere, the Holtey name will be tarnished.

My personal opinion is that in Karl's case I would not take that chance. It takes years to establish a reputation, and seconds to destroy it...

If Karl is intent on making kits no matter what, I would humbly suggest that he uses a different trade name for the kits. Then, seeing "Holtey" on a plane remains a guarantee that this is "the real thing".

Just my two pence,

DC

Welcome to the forum, DC.

My understanding is that the iron will carry the logo/name, but the kit bodies are marked differently, and so distinguishable.

As I've thought about this today, I think the major sticky point about kitted planes is the machined parts. The better the machining, the more assured the body will go together with less a chance of error. I can live with a few errant hammer dings. Over-filing in a desire to "get done" is another issue altogether. If that can be avoided form the start, so much the better.

Take care, Mike

 

[dchenard]

I can't believe that people have swooped so fast to discouraging this. I would never in a million years buy a real Holtey, but I could imagine possibly buying one of these in a thousand years. The difference is clear, in collector terms, because the plane body mark clearly marks it as a kit and not the real thing. I really can't understand why some many people would try and discourage KH from spreading a bit wider this way - unless perhaps there are personal but not yet specified fears of dilution of value at stake?

For the record, I don't own a Holtey plane, neither do I plan to buy one, just not in my budget...

But, by pure coincidence, I stopped by a plane collector's house tonight to pay him for my previous purchases (which included a Shepherd kit...), and he showed me five or six Holteys he owns... Quite stunning... And I've seen Garrett Hack use a 98 last week, it just blew me away...

Yes, dilution of value is my concern, not for myself (I have no financial stake in this), but for the current owners. When you plunk down many thousands of pounds for one of Karl's offerings, there is an expectation of value, which is maintained by the fact that Karl only makes top of the line tools, under his full control. Once his name is associated with potentially "lesser" planes, all of his tools lose value. It could end up making him more money in the short term, but over the long term the name Holtey would lose value.

It's as if Mercedes-Benz started marketing Skodas (or any other low-priced car line) under its own name...

In the early '80s Cadillac in North America started selling the Cimarron, which was a low cost Chevrolet with tons of makeup on it. People weren't fooled, and it took years for Cadillac to rebuild its image. The same could happen to Holtey...

DC

 

[MikeW]

...It's as if Mercedes-Benz started marketing Skodas (or any other low-priced car line) under its own name...
...
DC

:lol: Except in your illustration it is the [relatively] low cost car company [technically] making the Mercedes...

And perhaps the illustration is truer of the situation: it wold be me assembling a Mercedes, so to speak. Now, it may not have the resale value as a true Mercedes, but I don't think my kit car would affect the value of the true Mercedes...

Bad analogy aside, time will tell if Karl does go forward and whether a collector or user of Karl's planes lose any value out of this potential undertaking. My feeling is it could well up the value.

Take care, Mike

 

[dchenard]

I guess time will tell, eh?

I still think that if Karl goes ahead with this, it should be done under another trade name. Like Felder does with its Hammer line. You then know that a Felder is a Felder, and the Hammer can be anything without affecting the Felder name... Eliminates any potential confusion...

Just my opinion,

DC

 

[Alf]

Who'd provide the telephone/email support for the kit makers...?
I also can't help but recall that Karl Holtey's estimate of price on his "lower cost" #98 fell short by just a teeny tiny bit...
And I think DC (no, not that one, the other one - welcome, btw) has a good point about not muddying the Holtey name.
Other than that, oh, and the fact I couldn't afford one, sounds like it's worth a further look...

Cheers, Alf

P.S. David, exactly when is the new book coming out...? :wink:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

---what justifies spending that sort of cash on a tool in any case? I mean that seriously what justifies it? The things may look lovely, ----- but if something cheaper perfoms at least as well then surely its the better tool.

---what justifies spending that sort of cash on a piece of furniture in any case? I mean that seriously what justifies it? The things may look lovely, ----- but if something cheaper perfoms at least as well then surely its the better piece of furniture.

I have no urge to buy a Holtey plane myself-- ready made or kit. I can't afford one, and the planes I already have work fine for me. It would be nice to own one and if someone wants to dip their hand in their wallet and buy one for me---- well I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, ha, ha.

I'd like to own a really high quality car, but can't afford one of those either. And the customers that buy the sort of furniture some of us offer for sale could just as easily nip down to IKEA or the second-hand shop.

Karl Holtey sells aspirational tools and there are some out there mr that have the wherewithal to splash out on one or more. I like to think that those of us that produce extremely expensive furniture are appealing to a similarly aspirational client base. Slainte.

 

[Chris Knight]

I love infill planes and even own a couple.. I also like making things but I have not been tempted by a kit plane at all and for the same reason that I wouldn't build furniture from a kit - it would give me very little satisfaction. If all the tricky bits are done by someone else it wouldn't feel like much of an accomplishment. Of course this is a personal thing and yes I have built model aircraft etc from kits so it varies even with myself.

I am certain I would not get as good a plane as if I bought one from an established maker with a good reputation and that would irritate me each time I used it, especially if the cost of the kit were a substantial proportion of what I would have to pay for the "real thing"

Having said that, kit car manufacturers do make a business in a similar way and people still buy their products.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Thanks for all the replies....

I have been inundated with pms and emails on this issue and many thanks for feedback.

Infill Kits....it might mean there is a business in it but whether it is big enough to support X amount of people is something different. It might mean its a viable proposition for part time rather than full time.
whether we price the kits higher or lower there are always going to be people who think its worth the money or not and it one of the reasons i'm asking the questions.

If it goes ahead there will be initally a a page on Holteys website under the projects heading. eventually there will be a new web site created totally seperate from the one he has. On here will be FAQ's and complete build instructions and pictures....then if the builder is still in doubt their will be email support..

As stated earlier its not cast in stone as yet but taking in different views gives us something to consider seriously....basic market research in its infancy but i think its a worthwhile excercise and hopefully when i sit down with Karl again we can make decisions that will be a straight forward yes or no to kits.

regards

Ian

 

[mr]

furniture [/i][/color]in any case? I mean that seriously what justifies it?

Precisely, what justifies that? That is entirely my point. There is always a justification for purchasing something which costs more than something else which is similar but not the same. The point being that the value is "held" in certain things. In this case the Holtey name and hands, remove those and the reasons may be gone.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

It strikes me that there are a few reasons for buying an infill kit. There is the desire to create something that was both functional and artistic. Then there is the desire just to own a high quality handplane along with reduced costs over the same plane that is purchased complete.

There are some infill planes that are no doubt purchased by a majority as objects of art, and only used by a minority of owners. I suspect that Holtey falls into this category. The name of Karl Holtey is synonymous with The Best there is in handplanes and, since their very high price places them in the rare category, they are collectable.

Will a Holtey kit be seen to be a "short-cut" to owning Handplane Nirvana? There are be pros and cons. Unfortunately, these planes will never be as valuable as a Karl Holtey-made Holtey. In fact, an unopened kit may eventually be more valuable than a built-kit! Such is the good name of Karl Holtey. Will this water down his name? I don't think that this will apply to his custom-built work since no one could/would pass these off as a true oil painting instead of the graphic reproduction, albeit a signed one, to a knowledgable collecter.

But what of the kit plane as a user? Well, the price may appear a lot to those who aspire to LN, but many pay the proposed kit price and much more for custom planes (such as those of Wayne Anderson and Philip Marcou). I believe that Karl and Ian have it right with their plan to market an infill-less infill since it is the metal work that seems to scare off most would-be craftspersons. Hey, if you screw up the wood you can start again. I have little doubt that there will be sufficient standing in line to purchase the kit to warrant producing it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Sgian Dubh]

mr, I thought I'd pointed towards an answer to your question in my earlier response by making comparative statements and allusions that you'd pick up on and extrapolate an answer of your own, but perhaps not.

The reputation Holtey planes have is of superb engineering and each item is something of a piece of industrial art. They are reputed to work beautifully but I can't verify that as I've never used one. For that matter I've never seen one in the flesh.

They just have that reputation built up over several years. Karl Holtey is a highly respected maker of the tools he makes in hand tool circles. His reputation goes before him. You don't get a bad plane from Karl Holtey, you get excellence.


If you want an el-cheapo bit of furniture that's poorly made (but actually excellent value for the peanuts you pay) nip down to IKEA and chuck a piece of boxed KD crapola from China or some other low labour rate country in the back of your car and assemble the wobbler yourself at home. Put it in the landfill two or three years down the road when it's fallen apart and you've finished with it.

If you want that excellence you'd better be prepared to pay the price. Crying and whinging is not an option. Pay up, or shut up. You're in with the big boys now not with the great unwashed know-nothings that ponce around with Mickey Mouse monkey metal planes from B&Q that never work.


If you want an individualised bespoke furniture item designed and crafted to exacting requirements and needs by a maker at the peak of their powers, reputation, public acclaim and recognition ask an Alan Peters (who is sadly not well) or a John Makepeace and commission them to do the job. In the same way, you're now in with the big boys. Don't think about complaining about the price. You don't ask if you can't afford these guys.

What determines that a Makepeace or a Peters is better than an IKEA item. Answer that question and I think you'll have an answer to the Holtey phenomenom. Slainte.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Mickey Mouse monkey metal planes from B&Q that never work.

LOL thats one i havent heard before

many thanks sgian for your feedback...it is well thought out and written but i dont want to start any arguments over something i am trying to guage and have the mods remove the feedback.

for wiw Karls planes are in a league you probobly wouldnt think possible.
he is a cabinet maker by trade and turned engineer and is highly skilled in both areas which lends itself well to what he does. He has standards that he works too and produces something for a purpose and not a price but the latter inevitably kicks in this is also something that is very rare these days.
I have picked up some valuable information over the last few days and many thanks for all who have contributed


Derek,
thanks for your support.

like everything in life quality has a price you either accept it or dont. I remember thinking a LN was pricey now i think its cheap, not because he reduced the price but because i now have a different perspective on toolmakers products.

regards

Ian

 

[Noel]

Dubh,

That's a very elitest and unwelcome attitude you've expressed and the personal insults are totally uncalled for. So what if people buy from Ikea or B & Q? If they're happy, surely that's the best reason in the world to make that particular choice and likewise for those people that purchase a Holtey or similar item.
We're only talking tools here, no need to get so angry.

Noel

 

[mr]

Dubh,

That's a very elitest attitude you've expressed and the personal insults are totally uncalled for.
Noel

YOu should have seen his unedited version. :wink: He also appears to have missed my point entirely. Rather than whinging about the price or questioning the value I was asking whether the object is greater than its function and whether by removing the thing that makes it great you remove its value entirely. But never mind eh.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I wasn't 'angry' Noel, just plain spoken. I didn't make personal insults. I made general observations on the choices we all make, or have to make. You probably noticed that I said IKEA furniture is actually very good value for money-- perhaps you didn't. I can't tell.

I believe you are incorrect in your "we're only talking tools here," comment because when you sell planes for hundreds or thousands of pounds each, that is by definition, elitist.

If it was a common or garden tool everyone could buy one without troubling their bank balance or savings unduly. Holtey planes are outwith my financial scope. Perhaps if I was rich enough I'd buy one of everything he offers--- after all they're reputed to work beautifully. I can't afford them, therefore his offerings are for people in a significantly higher tax paying bracket than I am.

There is nothing wrong with that. Western society isn't egalitarian and we can't all buy top of the range things. Most of us get around in ordinary cars, live in typical run-of-the-mill houses, and fret about paying the next round of bills. Slainte.

We're only talking tools here, Noel

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Again mr, I thought I'd answered your question. What makes a Holtey plane great? They work extremely well (so it's said) they are (to my eyes anyway) beautiful examples of industrial art, and they have a reputation of engineering excellence amongst the hand tool cognoscenti.

What else can I do to make my point? What makes a Hockney painting valuable, a Titian, a Vettriano, a Matisse, an Emin installation, or an embalmed shark or sheep from Damien? They're all artists that are highly sought after. It's hard to fathom out why in some cases, but their work commands large or even vast sums.

Somehow these artists have a reputation and people will pay hundreds of thousands, or even millions of pounds to own one of their pieces. The reputation would have come from those that 'understand' and 'talk' about art. They could all be talking through a hole in their head for all that most of us know, but their opinion has weight and word gets around that an artist is 'collectable.'

Sometimes trying to describe what makes one persons work valuable over anothers is hard. You could possibly pick up a Holtey plane and compare its performance against any other plane to see whether or not the talk is merited. Or it might be that we just have to take the word of those in the know regarding the excellence of his tools if we're never going to get the chance of using one in anger for ourselves. Slainte.

 

[Midnight]

If you want that excellence you'd better be prepared to pay the price. Crying and whinging is not an option. Pay up, or shut up. You're in with the big boys now not with the great unwashed know-nothings that ponce around with Mickey Mouse monkey metal planes from B&Q that never work.

soft words... softly spoken..

<making a note that today was obviously a good day.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

We have got a picture of parts that will be used for the kits. Things will differ slightly and the name stamp wont be used but rather initials.

this picture will appear on the his projects page shortley

We are trying to show the quality of kit parts that will be offered if it goes ahead.


Ian