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How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?

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RobinBHM

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So it's just your opinion, how come you are allowed to do that but I am not?
Wrong

Its not simply my opinion -Ive backed it up with logic.........which if you had a valid counter argument, you would have posted it.


if an NHS nurse gets ill from covid and sadly dies....your argument is "she might have died anyway in the same year".
Im sorry its not really a great argument is it?
 

Rorschach

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Wrong

Its not simply my opinion -Ive backed it up with logic.........which if you had a valid counter argument, you would have posted it.


if an NHS nurse gets ill from covid and sadly dies....your argument is "she might have died anyway in the same year".
Im sorry its not really a great argument is it?

Ah logic, not facts, logic. Gotcha :rolleyes:
 

RobinBHM

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All lockdown has done is to slow the spread to the point where the NHS is not overwhelmed (although currently very close). Lockdown will not stop the virus; as soon as restrictions are relaxed it will spread again. Indefinite lockdown is not a realistic option.
That is indeed true.

Lockdowns ( or more correctly a range of non pharmaceutical interventions) have never been intended to be a permanent solution. Their purpose is to stop the bath water overflowing until a vaccine is in place.

Unfortunately anti lockdowners use the strawman argument that: "lockdowns dont work, the virus comes back, therefore we shouldnt have had lockdowns"

the scientists did warn the back in June / July that they should work very hard to get rid of as much underlying community infection over the summer which would have made this wave less severe and reduced the chance of a mutation. Instead we had "eat out to help out".
 

RobinBHM

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Ah logic, not facts, logic. Gotcha :rolleyes:
If you had a valid counter argument you would use it.

you havent.........so you use an ad hominem instead.


I am sorry you seem so upset I havent provided evidence to back up what is obvious

here ya go:

The number of NHS staff who have died in service is nearly double that of previous years, according to official figures.


Offical workforce figures published by NHS Digital show that in the first quarter of 2020 a total of 403 NHS workers in England died while employed by the health service.

In real terms, this means an increase of 188 deaths when compared with an average of the past ten years.
 

Droogs

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Look we employ 1 million people plus in the healthcare industry of course some are going to die from something. You cannot say that no healthcare workers will die ever. How many supermarket workers have died that can be traced to covid deaths? How many teachers? Its very very small and they kept working.
The number of teachers who have died of covid 19 is 65/506400 known employed teachers in the UK (last verifiable figures by the ONS Apr 2020) and is the same percentage rate for the total number of people who have died within the general population of the UK ie 0.01%. This in an entirely safe non infectious environment where contact with children is not dangerous as they can not apparently give you covid. cow merd

edit some further info
Taken from schoolsweek magazine

Teachers in secondary schools and sixth forms are more likely to catch Covid-19 than their primary school counterparts.


ONS analysis found between September 2 and October 16, 0.38 per cent of secondary and sixth form teachers tested positive for coronavirus.


In contrast, just 0.23 per cent of primary teachers tested positive during the same period.

and also


Education support staff, such as kitchen and cleaning staff, were more likely to catch Covid-19 than teachers.


Analysis found that 0.45 per cent of these staff had tested positive between September 2 and October 16, while nursery and pre-school teachers also scored 0.45 per cent.
 
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Lons

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Fair enough. Some hospitals will have local spikes. But you also need to acknowledge many don't. As I say there were 30k excess deaths (non covid) which we didn't save last year. And the hospitals were not full of covid patients in jul-october.
I did respond to that in a previous post
 

Selwyn

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Untrue.

"Clinically vulnerable" doesn't mean people on their last legs.

It includes people living perfectly normal lives that have a chronic health condition....diabetes, high blood pressure, heart issues, COPD, immune disorders, CKD and many others
Whered did I say people who were clinically vulnerable were on their last legs?
 

Selwyn

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Wrong

Its not simply my opinion -Ive backed it up with logic.........which if you had a valid counter argument, you would have posted it.


if an NHS nurse gets ill from covid and sadly dies....your argument is "she might have died anyway in the same year".
Im sorry its not really a great argument is it?
No. That isn't his argument.

His argument is more probably - "this is bad news and sadly part of the collateral damage of a pandemic (when it actually was a pandemic). Yes we were ill prepared for a covid pandemic but that was then this is now"
 

rafezetter

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No millions will not die. You have a. 2-.5% chance of dieing if over 80.


You do realise the medical world can often people alive for a few more months or even years at times but chose not to? We could technically keep people ventilated for a long time and alive but for what end when they are 86?

What is your opinion of the 30k excess deaths in the home this year? Necessary collateral damage? That sounds genocidal too!
Selly are you really trying to play that game with me?

Why are you coming after ME?

I AM NOT THE ONCE ADVOCATING WE LET THE OLD AND VULNERABLE DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET YOUR GODDAMN FACTS STRAIGHT PAL.

(Yes I'm shouting)

I'm the one pointing the finger at rorschach whom IS the one advocating mass death - ASK HIM what his opinion is of the 30k excess deaths.

However in answer to your question: some of these deaths are, from my understanding, all the deaths that happen from all the "normal" sources which are so many and varied as to be unreasonable to list but will include: cancer, RTA's, heart disease, organ failure for another whole multitude of reasons such as alcoholism and obesity; plus deaths from diabetes, encephalactic shock (allergies), and on and on and on and on - which despite modern medicine and knowledge continue to happen ANYWAY, no matter how many laws we introduce for road safety, no matter how widespread the advice on lifestyle choices, and the warnings that smoking and alcoholism KILLS.

Which ones are the EXCESS and which are not is still not fully known - as far as I'm aware covid deaths are listed as a covid death, but are any UNDERLYING medical conditions ALSO listed in that death as well?

However my point has ALWAYS been - underlying medical conditions or not, even a person with stage 4 cancer still has the right to live out their last days without fear of catching Covid to further shorten thier already terminal lifespan - RORSCHACH is the one stating "we let the old and vulnerable die a little sooner" NOT ME!

so get off my case, get your facts straight, and go point that thing someplace else.
 

RickG

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Have to admit to having not read all this thread, but UK ranks 5th in the list of countries with the highest Covid death toll.
Then yesterday, when BoJo announced the stricter quarantine measures, he fluffed it again!
In Australia you arrive and are taken by military to a quarantine facility where you go to your room and stay for 2 weeks.
In the UK you leave the airport and can catch a train with loads of the unsuspecting public, spreading the virus as you go "home" or wherever and quarantine yourself, or not.
 

Selwyn

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Selly are you really trying to play that game with me?

Why are you coming after ME?

I AM NOT THE ONCE ADVOCATING WE LET THE OLD AND VULNERABLE DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET YOUR GODDAMN FACTS STRAIGHT PAL.

(Yes I'm shouting)

I'm the one pointing the finger at rorschach whom IS the one advocating mass death - ASK HIM what his opinion is of the 30k excess deaths.

However in answer to your question: some of these deaths are, from my understanding, all the deaths that happen from all the "normal" sources which are so many and varied as to be unreasonable to list but will include: cancer, RTA's, heart disease, organ failure for another whole multitude of reasons such as alcoholism and obesity; plus deaths from diabetes, encephalactic shock (allergies), and on and on and on and on - which despite modern medicine and knowledge continue to happen ANYWAY, no matter how many laws we introduce for road safety, no matter how widespread the advice on lifestyle choices, and the warnings that smoking and alcoholism KILLS.

Which ones are the EXCESS and which are not is still not fully known - as far as I'm aware covid deaths are listed as a covid death, but are any UNDERLYING medical conditions ALSO listed in that death as well?

However my point has ALWAYS been - underlying medical conditions or not, even a person with stage 4 cancer still has the right to live out their last days without fear of catching Covid to further shorten thier already terminal lifespan - RORSCHACH is the one stating "we let the old and vulnerable die a little sooner" NOT ME!

so get off my case, get your facts straight, and go point that thing someplace else.
He wasn't advocating mass deaths. But I'm pointing out to you that lockdown has not come without other non covid deaths either (30k excess non covid deaths for a start).

Everyone does not have a "right" to not die of covid, its just ridiculous statement.
 

rafezetter

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........ you are misquoting by edit
If that's aimed at me Dr Bob - how so? The entirety of the post is quoted - no editing - because to edit another persons quote to read differently is a bannable offense. I know this.

He claims rorshachs version is not "genocide" - I've proven simply by highlighting the relevant parts of the meaning of genocide WITH NO EDITING AT ALL - go look at the wiki page yourself, all the same words in the same order - that "let the old and the vulnerable die" falls into the category of "genocide" as it has both necessary qualifiers to be classed as such.

- deliberate act - specifically, action by inaction, when action could be taken to prevent it - "LET them die".
- a group specific - "vulnerable and old".

anything else or are we done here?
 

doctor Bob

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I'd also like you to explain how "let the old and vulnerable die - because they will die anyway soon" is NOT genocide? - you do know what genocide means right?
Here, that's not what he said, that's what you interpreted it as.
P.S. I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out an out of proportion quote.
 

Jake

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He wasn't advocating mass deaths. But I'm pointing out to you that lockdown has not come without other non covid deaths either (30k excess non covid deaths for a start).

Everyone does not have a "right" to not die of covid, its just ridiculous statement.
You cannot blame non-COVID excess deaths on lockdown because they have happened during the pandemic unless they are specifically attributable to lockdown and not the pandemic.

Non-COVID excess deaths would be far higher absent lockdowns because of NHS overload.
 

billw

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Genocide? C'mon now. Let's gently return to reality with a nice soft landing on a fluffy pillow and forget that word ever got mentioned.

Intentionally deciding to let a population be exposed to a virus that may, or may not, cause death is not genocide. Gassing people in buildings - that's genocide. Armed soldiers wandering around shooting their own fellow citizens on sight - that's also genocide. Causing mass starvation and cratering an economy - genocide.

Cratering the economy causing mass unemployment, mental health issues, record national debt levels, education deficiencies for low income groups, just so Auntie Doris can spend an extra five months being incontinent in a home - not genocide.
 

selly

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You cannot blame non-COVID excess deaths on lockdown because they have happened during the pandemic unless they are specifically attributable to lockdown and not the pandemic.

Non-COVID excess deaths would be far higher absent lockdowns because of NHS overload.
Well what do you think they are attributable to? Do you pretend they are not part of the overall picture because they don't say covid?

There is no evidence for your second paragraph at all. We know lots of places never came near a peak and yet we pretended they were all under major strain and they were not. The viral curve looks remarkably similar everywhere in Europe regardless of policy, lockdpwn etc.

Excess deaths are the measurement. No one doubts the April excess deaths.

In Wales covid has "killed" 0.14% of the population in 2020. Now the vast majority of these will be very old or not far off death for that year. Obviously there will be a few very unlucky people who died too young, workplace etc but that is life. I wish it wasn't so but that is that - for sure we made mistakes early. How it is not blindingly obvious this is now a seasonal disease beats me.

I'm pretty certain that post vaccination if they chose to pcr test every death in the future that covid will still "kill" a figure of around 0.1%. What has not been done is the calculation on non covid excess deaths % for the year and the extra deaths in the future we will inevitably have by being poorer and saddled with this huge debt. And also the extra deaths we will have which we may have saved by picking up comorbidities earlier but lots of posters here clearly don't give a damn about this.
 
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NormanB

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No I just don't want to talk about my local hospital.

But its about 300 deaths from covid from a 400k population if it helps. 0.07%. Thats my health board not my hospital - we have about 4 or 5 hospitals. I have no doubt excess deaths from non covid sources will be higher. And I have also have no doubt that of those 300 people who died from covid I would expect (but we are not given the data) the vast majority would have been vulnerable to any number of things. Its not a good enough reason to trash young peoples lives for in my opinion but there are a lot of featherbedded pensioners on here or people who do not rely on a good economy for their jobs
You are being deliberately evasive, in my opinion, quoting the Covid deaths, is not a direct measure for how busy the hospital(s) are busy per se, or an indicator of how much spare capacity exists in ICU. When no spare capacity exists, and no transfers are clinically appropriate, the only clinically available demand management tool is deciding who does not go to ICU leading directly to both Covid and non Covid deaths.
 
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