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How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?

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Rorschach

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Non-COVID excess deaths would be far higher absent lockdowns because of NHS overload.
That is nonsense. Last year the NHS shut down nationwide, regardless of local case rates and capacity. I have covered it here before but a family member has suffered terribly and had their quality of life made much worse and shortened considerably. They will become a non-covid excess death soon. But this was all unnecessary, our local infections were almost non existent, our local hospital was a ghost town (still is mostly) but it was forced to essentially shut down for anything except emergency treatment for months.
 

Selwyn

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You are being deliberately evasive, in my opinion, quoting the Covid deaths, is not a direct measure for how busy the hospital(s) are busy per se, or an indicator of how much spare capacity exists in ICU. When no spare capacity exists, and no transfers are clinically appropriate, the only clinically available demand management tool is deciding who does not go to ICU leading directly to both Covid and non Covid deaths.
You mean you don't like the figures I quoted.

Furthermore the non covid excess deaths I quoted were not in hospital they were at home. So no decisions about icu were made.
 

Selwyn

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NormanB

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You mean you don't like the figures I quoted.

Furthermore the non covid excess deaths I quoted were not in hospital they were at home. So no decisions about icu were made.
No I have no view on the figures you quoted. It may be better if you did not tell me what I do or do not like.
Your reluctance to name the DGH means I am unable to verify your facts.
As for the latter - it may or may not be be true. It depends on the prevailing conditions and what management actions may or may not have been put in place.
 

Jameshow

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You are one of many who have a military fetish. We had it with the Nightingales too.

But anyway if this is a pandemic why are the nightingales shut and no Army nurses manning them before? If this was a genuine pandemic we would have recruited student nurses into the Nightingales etc. It was a pandemic in April, it isn't now
Because we don't have many full time army nurses.... Most I'm guessing are in the TA and already NHS nurses....

Student nurses still need experienced nurses to monitor them. Who are being used at full stretch in the NHS.

Cheers James
 

selectortone

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People keep popping up on here saying that their local hospitals are ghost towns, yet every night on the news I see exhausted hospital workers and hospitals full of very sick people.

The only personal anecdote I have is from one of my daughter's friends, a theatre nurse of some 15 years or so, who has now been seconded to Covid Intensive Care at Bournemouth General. She's been one of my daughter's best friends since school and is level-headed and not someone I associate with hyperbole. She has always loved her job but she says she hates going to work now; she's basically holding people's hands, and watching them die. And no, they're not all in Rorshach's expendable age group either.
 

RobinBHM

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If this was a genuine pandemic we would have recruited student nurses into the Nightingales etc. It was a pandemic in April, it isn't now
Strawman argument.

It's interesting how the anti lockdowners all use logical fallacies for their arguments.
 

RobinBHM

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why are the nightingales shut
Because nightingales aren't hospitals.

They have basic ventilators and no specialist auxilliary services that are needed to support ICU Covid patients.

And we have no staff
 

RobinBHM

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That is nonsense. Last year the NHS shut down nationwide, regardless of local case rates and capacity. I have covered it here before but a family member has suffered terribly and had their quality of life made much worse and shortened considerably. They will become a non-covid excess death soon. But this was all unnecessary, our local infections were almost non existent, our local hospital was a ghost town (still is mostly) but it was forced to essentially shut down for anything except emergency treatment for months.
Strawman argument.

I am sorry you have a family member that has suffered and is suffering. Please remember it is the Covid virus that has caused this not lockdown.

The reality is that in times of emergency, govts use blanket strategies. But that doesn't mean the overall strategy is a failure.

If there had been no lockdown the first time, non Covid hospital capacity would still have been massively reduced.

Look at the London hospitals now, many have expanded their Covid ICU from 1 ward up to maybe 8.......achieved by taking over children's wards, operating theatres.

Please explain how no lockdown would have allowed those hospitals more non covid admissions......they wouldn't.
 

RobinBHM

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But I'm pointing out to you that lockdown has not come without other non covid deaths either (30k excess non covid deaths for a start
But you are trying to make build your argument on the false assumption it is an either or option.

You seem to believe the 30k non Covid excess deaths would not have happened had there been no lockdown or hospitals had kept non Covid capacity open.
 

RobinBHM

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Given that the IFR curve looks very similar all over Europe (incl Sweden) then it appears unlikely that there would have been massive amounts of excess deaths if we hadn't locked down
No it doesn't, there is no real evidence to back your claim excess deaths would have been the same with no lockdown.

You are simplifying the lockdown versus non lockdown as though it were binary.

Each country used numerous non pharmaceutical interventions that you've lumped together as 'lockdown'
 

doctor Bob

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I'm sitting on the fence really. However I'm working very covid safe and home life is battened down, so that probably means I'm more in favour of keeping life restricted.

However, I'm getting rather confused on strawman, conflagulated and hyperbole, whats the difference?
 

RobinBHM

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The curve turned before lock down
No it didn't....that was based on flawed research. An anti lockdowners used incorrect time between infection and death to arrive at the conclusion you are claiming.

 

RobinBHM

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Look we employ 1 million people plus in the healthcare industry of course some are going to die from something. You cannot say that no healthcare workers will die ever. How many supermarket workers have died that can be traced to covid deaths? How many teachers? Its very very small and they kept working.
Dishonest argument.

Those that died, did so from Covid.

You can't argue that an average of X number of healthcare workers would die anyway.....those people would still die plus those from Covid.


And yes other essential workers died....bus drivers for example.

By the way nurses face a far higher viral load than other workers
 

Rorschach

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Strawman argument.

I am sorry you have a family member that has suffered and is suffering. Please remember it is the Covid virus that has caused this not lockdown.

The reality is that in times of emergency, govts use blanket strategies. But that doesn't mean the overall strategy is a failure.

If there had been no lockdown the first time, non Covid hospital capacity would still have been massively reduced.

Look at the London hospitals now, many have expanded their Covid ICU from 1 ward up to maybe 8.......achieved by taking over children's wards, operating theatres.

Please explain how no lockdown would have allowed those hospitals more non covid admissions......they wouldn't.
In the case of our hospital it was closed down for a perceived threat that has never materialised. That is not caused by C19, that is caused by the reaction to C19.
 

Droogs

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That is nonsense. Last year the NHS shut down nationwide, regardless of local case rates and capacity. I have covered it here before but a family member has suffered terribly and had their quality of life made much worse and shortened considerably. They will become a non-covid excess death soon. But this was all unnecessary, our local infections were almost non existent, our local hospital was a ghost town (still is mostly) but it was forced to essentially shut down for anything except emergency treatment for months.
While I do truly feel sad at the events experience by your relative, Your pronouncement about the NHS is simply untrue/incorrect. What has happened to them is entirely a local occurence not a national policy. How do I know this well from March until Sept I was enrolled on a full course of chemo and radiotherapy. Started after the 1st lockdown began and continued without interruption until completed. i also know of many more people all over the UK that this is the case for them too. So the NHS did not have a national shut down of normal operating but any shut downs experience were entirely the decision of the local Trust.

Yes my Dr quarantined me in my flat in early Feb stating if I did catch this novo covid I would not be able to start my treatment, so I stayed in the house only leaving to go direct to my treatments and return home. I have done this right up until being told I could go out and about but to take some extra precautions as I would be immuno suppressed until Aug 2021 due to ongoing treatments. But it did mean I could go to the wksp for the 1st time since Jan last year and after my 3rd visit we all had to go back into lockdown. I am not even allowed to use a bus for the foreseeable.

Has this been hard, damn right it is, Just like everyone else my wants are scuppered and my income totaled. Rorscharch you moan about a dip in income and sneer and insinuate people like me are sitting pretty. Well we are not. My total income for all of last year was under £3K, i live on bags of pasta and rice donated to me by charity with some tinned tomatoes, each week. So get an Ef'n grip on the reality for some and try to be a decent human being towards others
 

Blackswanwood

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I'm sitting on the fence really. However I'm working very covid safe and home life is battened down, so that probably means I'm more in favour of keeping life restricted.

However, I'm getting rather confused on strawman, conflagulated and hyperbole, whats the difference?
Is the middle one what Max Mosley was accused of doing with five hookers in that court case he won against the News of the World?
 
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