How was this joint cut?

[_lotusbleu]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BR8PB2NhKAk ... =kataiisho

I saw this picture of a table made by a Japanese furniture maker.

He uses this joint a lot in his furniture. At first I assumes it was just a bridle joint, but this picture shows that both rails can't be bridled.

There's another example of it here - https://www.instagram.com/p/BKDMXdlB3DV ... =kataiisho

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I'd think the bottom rail runs through the leg and the top is a bridle which sits in a notch in the bottom rail to hold the lot together.

 

[Chrispy]

I would be very surprised if the rails do as they look and go right through the legs without shoulders, it would be a very difficult thing to do neatly and would take almost all the strength from the legs, instead I think the rails would be mortise and tenons as per normal with decorative ends applied after.

 

[Imperial]

No idea on the joint but, this guy posts videos of him making several nice pieces of Japanese furniture, a good watch :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Fkqj ... FCHXQSQe9Q

 

[Hornbeam]

Top joint is probably a bridle joint but both joints could be done without the rails actually going through the leg so could be done with stub mortices or dominoes. This may not be traditional japanese but I would do it with dominoes

 

[Steve Maskery]

Given that it is Japanese, and Japanese woodworkers are renowned for their skill and ingenuity, I think that it is possible that this is very cunning.

The top joint is a bridle, that is easy. The other? Hmm. If I were a Japanese woodworker trying to baffle a fellow woodworker, I would take the rail, cut of a piece which will show as sticking out, cut a tenon on the main part of the rail, but make it over-long. Then cut a mortice in the cap to fit over the end of the tenon sticking out of the leg.

 

[thetyreman]

you'd have to cut the arches first, so it looks like a bridal joint and mortise and tenon, but with a slight camber to it, you'd have to get this spot on, no room for errors, I'd use an arch template for consistency as a reference.

You could make this without using glue if the joinery was very tight.

In the second picture, you'd just cut a notch out of the bottom tenon to make it fit, on the inside which you would never see.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Why wouldn't it just be a bridle joint on top and a simple mortice on the bottom with the whole bottom rail feeding through that, and then a half-lap cut between the top rail and the bottom rail to hold everything in place? Pick out straight-grained material for the legs and there should be enough strength to make that work, surely?

 

[ED65]

Why wouldn't it just be a bridle joint on top and a simple mortice on the bottom with the whole bottom rail feeding through that, and then a half-lap cut between the top rail and the bottom rail to hold everything in place?

That would work well I think if the rail can go through the leg. I'm not convinced it can fit through a mortice though because it has an angled bottom and flat top.

Given this is Japanese I think there's a good chance neither joint is what it appears to be from the outside!

 

[Eric The Viking]

The joint would be impossible to assemble if it was straight through, and weak.

Looking carefully at the first picture, I think I can see where a grain matching fillet has been applied to the leg, above the lower rail. It makes sense to have a narrowed bridle in both axes. You can hide all but the vertical sides of the fillets, and that would keep the legs reasonably strong, and need the minimum of glue. You really need the outside "tenon" shoulders to grip the leg, as well as the inside ones, to keep it all tight, and you would achieve it that way.

If it is cleverer than that, it's hard to see the point of any extra complexity.

But I defer to Chris, Custard et al on this!

 

[_lotusbleu]

you'd have to cut the arches first, so it looks like a bridal joint and mortise and tenon, but with a slight camber to it, you'd have to get this spot on, no room for errors, I'd use an arch template for consistency as a reference.

You could make this without using glue if the joinery was very tight.

In the second picture, you'd just cut a notch out of the bottom tenon to make it fit, on the inside which you would never see.

Not sure if I see what you mean about notching the bottom tenon? Maybe I'm being slow, but I can't see how notching it would allow the full width to come through the leg. Unless you just mean to allow for the top rail?


Still puzzling over this one!

 

[_lotusbleu]

The joint would be impossible to assemble if it was straight through, and weak.

Looking carefully at the first picture, I think I can see where a grain matching fillet has been applied to the leg, above the lower rail. It makes sense to have a narrowed bridle in both axes. You can hide all but the vertical sides of the fillets, and that would keep the legs reasonably strong, and need the minimum of glue. You really need the outside "tenon" shoulders to grip the leg, as well as the inside ones, to keep it all tight, and you would achieve it that way.

If it is cleverer than that, it's hard to see the point of any extra complexity.

But I defer to Chris, Custard et al on this!

That certainly seems the most sensible way to go about it!

I have a feeling that there's some sneakier Japanese joinery going on here. Definitely all about the showiness either way!

 

[thetyreman]

you'd have to cut the arches first, so it looks like a bridal joint and mortise and tenon, but with a slight camber to it, you'd have to get this spot on, no room for errors, I'd use an arch template for consistency as a reference.

You could make this without using glue if the joinery was very tight.

In the second picture, you'd just cut a notch out of the bottom tenon to make it fit, on the inside which you would never see.

Not sure if I see what you mean about notching the bottom tenon? Maybe I'm being slow, but I can't see how notching it would allow the full width to come through the leg. Unless you just mean to allow for the top rail?


Still puzzling over this one!

in simple terms, the top tenon (left to right) needs to have a notch cut out of it, to allow for the side tenon to fit (front to back), or you could cut a notch out of the side tenon, to make the top tenon fit, but it's all inside and invisible, without doing that how would it fit? I could do a drawing for you if you still having trouble imagining it, it's actually quite simple once you get it.

 

[_lotusbleu]

in simple terms, the top tenon (left to right) needs to have a notch cut out of it, to allow for the side tenon to fit (front to back), or you could cut a notch out of the side tenon, to make the top tenon fit, but it's all inside and invisible, without doing that how would it fit? I could do a drawing for you if you still having trouble imagining it, it's actually quite simple once you get it.

Sure, I get that they need to be notched to accommodate for each other.

I thought you meant that the bottom rail was notched in order to come through the leg (ignoring the top rail for the time being).
Are you thinking that the bottom rail is morticed through at full width of the rail?

 

[thetyreman]

in simple terms, the top tenon (left to right) needs to have a notch cut out of it, to allow for the side tenon to fit (front to back), or you could cut a notch out of the side tenon, to make the top tenon fit, but it's all inside and invisible, without doing that how would it fit? I could do a drawing for you if you still having trouble imagining it, it's actually quite simple once you get it.

Sure, I get that they need to be notched to accommodate for each other.

I thought you meant that the bottom rail was notched in order to come through the leg (ignoring the top rail for the time being).
Are you thinking that the bottom rail is morticed through at full width of the rail?

the bottom rail (front to back) which is actually the side rail as well, would have to be notched to accommodate the top rail, and yes it's a through mortise and tenon joint, which gives extra strength. The problem is that you'll never know which rail has the notch, it could be either one, and it probably won't make any difference if it's all hidden anyway, that decision is up to you when you are designing and building it.

 

[Orraloon]

I had a look at some Japanese joints on line and the impression I get is that they are all trying to go for the wow factor.
More wood puzzles than joinery. That said some are very clever.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=japa ... 93&bih=506

http://www.spoon-tamago.com/2016/10/04/ ... d-joinery/

Made my brain hurt after a while.

Regards
John

 

[SteveF]

is the rail not 2 parts with offset tenons (maybe wedge shaped )into a single mortice?


Steve

 

[macca]

If the lower rail were two tenons split vertically coming into the the mortise from either side and each tenon was notched to accept the top rail it could physically lock the tenons into place.

I am a veritable newbie so I may have overlooked some fundamental flaw here

 

[Tasky]

I think the lower rail is a standard M&T joint, slightly notched to allow for the top rail... but has a full size end cap with a wedge on the inside end, that is hammered back in to make a wedged tenon and covers up how small the M&T is.