How much useable blade length on Veritas apron plane?

[nev]

Yep! you carry on with your method, personally I just drag mine down the garage wall

We don't have the F*** word! around here, we have the S****** word!

 

[PalmRoyale]

So you turned it into a toothed blade :lol:

 

[Jacob]

Mr PalmRoyale I apologise for the digression.

Isn't that what internet forums are for? For hijacking threads :lol:

As for the way I sharpen my blades... well, we all have our own method and we all usually arrive at the same result. A hollow grind followed by free hand sharpening is how it was taught to me. It's a quick and easy way and it has served me well during the past 15 years. I will stick with it if that's okay with you guys. Please, can I continue to use this method? I hope you say yes because I wouldn't know what to do if you say no.

You can do what you like - I just can't see the point of removing so much metal from an expensive blade and inflicting several years wear in one operation. But if that's what turns you on..!
NB it might be a good idea to buy a plane but with more blade length, 3/8" is very short and they are not cheap.

 

[Jacob]

I will re-grind the bevel to 30 degrees but I'm not going to put a micro bevel on it. I will make the full bevel 30 degrees. I sharpen free hand and need as much surface area as I can get for maximum stability during sharpening.

Free hand sharpening the full primary bevel on thick hard A2 steel with an awkward to hold small plane iron...well, that's not my idea of fun.

But hey, it's your fingers that'll be cramped and aching not mine, so you carry right on. But do let us know, after an hour or two of hard work when you finally managed to raise a burr, how it's working out for you!

Can be made easier with a bit of a handle - a length of 2x1" (say 12") with a saw kerf to hold the blade. You can put a lot more effort into it with both hands. You can even shape the holder for a comfortable fit. It makes it possible to freehand grind on a flat stone, which with a small blade is otherwise not easy.

 

[PalmRoyale]

I just can't see the point of removing so much metal from an expensive blade and inflicting several years wear in one operation.

When I'm working I don't have to time to fumble around with a sharpening jig every time I need to sharpen the blade. I need good contact between the blade and stone so I can quickly and easily sharpen free hand. The time, and thus money, that's lost by using a jig is more than the price of a new blade. I charge €45 an hour (not including VAT) for the cost of my labour which comes to €0.75 per minute. I can sharpen a blade in about 1,5 minute using the free hand method. Using a jig takes longer, at least twice as long so that's 3 minutes and it costs €1.125 more to use a jig. My block plane gets used every day and I sharpen the blade at least 4 times a week so that comes down to a price difference of €4,50 per week between free hand and a jig. Lets take the most expensive option, the PM-V11 replacement blade which costs €35,50. That means after just 8 weeks I'm already out the price of a new blade when I use a jig. Time is money. It's that simple.

Now all of this wouldn't be an issue if plane manufacturers would just stop putting a 25 degree bevel on the blades.

 

[bridger]

Now all of this wouldn't be an issue if plane manufacturers would just stop putting a 25 degree bevel on the blades.

Well, single bevel flat honing puts you in a small minority. If they did that the rest of us would have to do a bit of shaping at the grinder every new blade we get, to put that 25° primary in there.

 

[PalmRoyale]

Well, single bevel flat honing puts you in a small minority.

Not in The Netherlands. I don't know a single furniture maker, shipwright or carpenter who doesn't use a single bevel. A 25 degree bevel is completely useless. You can do everything with a 30 degree bevel in a low angle block plane. The only reason why it's popular now is because someone came up with the brilliant idea that if you tell people they need a micro bevel you can sell them a sharpening jig. The funny thing is that all the amateur woodworkers took their word for gospel because if someone who wrote a books says you need it, it must be true. 25-30 years ago no one cared about it. My dad and my grandfather didn't care about it. And the furniture makers/shipwrights/carpenters before them most certainly didn't care about it. It's just a scam.

But look at it this way. If you want to put a higher angle on a blade with a 25 degree bevel you shorten the blade. The other way around you don't shorten the blade. So what's better for the consumer?

 

[bridger]

I hone freehand and do my grinding largely freehand also, so there isn't exactly a clear line between a primary bevel and a microbevel, but I have no interest in working the whole bevel on a finishing stone in order to achieve a final edge. I don't even know what angle most of my bevels are- I adjust them for the work at hand. Some chisels thst get used for paring have lower bevel angles than others that get used for chopping, with the decision made relative to how the edge performed at the most recent task. Unless you pare to a surface bevel down I can't see much need for a flat bevel.

But really, you are an accomplished woodworker and how you sharpen is part of your work. You're not doing it wrong, and neither am I. For me, jigs and flat bevels are both slow methods that don't yield any benefits, but that is just me.

 

[bugbear]

Well, single bevel flat honing puts you in a small minority.

Not in The Netherlands. I don't know a single furniture maker, shipwright or carpenter who doesn't use a single bevel.

In England, a double bevel system is/was near universal, with grinding being done at 25 and honing at 30; I have strong evidence going back pre-1850 on this.

Your statement about Holland is most interesting. Do you know for certain that it's a national preference and not a local one? And do you know if the 30 degree single bevel thing is international - anyone know about Germany (and/or Bohemia, Austria, Slovakia if we're going back far enough).

Of course, Japanese carpenters (famously) sharpen their thick blades on a large, single flat bevel.

BugBear

 

[lurker]

If we assume most of this forum participants are UK based, there is clear evidence (from the endless arguements !) that there are umpteen "the only proper way" to sharpen edges. So I find it quite unbelievable another nation are in total agreement on this issue.

 

[Jacob]

I just can't see the point of removing so much metal from an expensive blade and inflicting several years wear in one operation.

When I'm working I don't have to time to fumble around with a sharpening jig every time I need to sharpen the blade. I need good contact between the blade and stone so I can quickly and easily sharpen free hand. The time, and thus money, that's lost by using a jig is more than the price of a new blade. I charge €45 an hour (not including VAT) for the cost of my labour which comes to €0.75 per minute. I can sharpen a blade in about 1,5 minute using the free hand method. Using a jig takes longer, at least twice as long so that's 3 minutes and it costs €1.125 more to use a jig. My block plane gets used every day and I sharpen the blade at least 4 times a week so that comes down to a price difference of €4,50 per week between free hand and a jig. Lets take the most expensive option, the PM-V11 replacement blade which costs €35,50. That means after just 8 weeks I'm already out the price of a new blade when I use a jig. Time is money. It's that simple.

Now all of this wouldn't be an issue if plane manufacturers would just stop putting a 25 degree bevel on the blades.

I agree with all that and I've been freehand honing for years for the same reasons.
But I don't need a starter 30º bevel - and neither do you. You just start sharpening your 25º bevel but hold the blade at 30º - as near as you can judge - it doesn't have to be precise. You then freehand the "secondary" bevel and with use, over time (a long time) remove all trace of the 25º you started with.
The 25º bevel the makers put on is extremely helpful as it makes the first sharpening very easy and the work of a few seconds to get a new chisel usable. Grinding to 30º is unnecessary and makes subsequent honing more difficult - you create two problems where previously there were non,
and waste valuable time and metal!

 

[Jacob]

I hone freehand and do my grinding largely freehand also, so there isn't exactly a clear line between a primary bevel and a microbevel, but I have no interest in working the whole bevel on a finishing stone in order to achieve a final edge. I don't even know what angle most of my bevels are- I adjust them for the work at hand. Some chisels thst get used for paring have lower bevel angles than others that get used for chopping, with the decision made relative to how the edge performed at the most recent task. Unless you pare to a surface bevel down I can't see much need for a flat bevel............

Basically that's how every hand tool user, everywhere, sharpens. It's just practical common sense which most people arrive at without giving it a thought.
The exceptions are those who need to be told how to do it (25º grind 30º hone being the simplest explanation) or those who mindlessly obey the modern sharpening mantras of recent years, picked up from magazines. :roll:

Re topic drift - does anybody have a good recipe for rice pudding?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Put it in a pan, chuck milk and sugar on it and cook til soft. Then bin it.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Put it in a pan, chuck milk and sugar on it and cook til soft. Then bin it.

Does that refer to the block plane, or the rice pudding?

Or to Jacob's 'advice'?

 

[PalmRoyale]

Your statement about Holland is most interesting. Do you know for certain that it's a national preference and not a local one? And do you know if the 30 degree single bevel thing is international

I can tell you I've worked all over The Netherlands (with other furniture makers, on shipyards and with interior builders) and it's the same everywhere I've been. A bench grinder set to 30 degrees for a hollow grind and usually a water stone in the 1200 grit range for honing. I think a stone in the 1200 grit range is too course so I finish on a 5000 grit stone.

I don't know how it's done in other countries.

 

[PalmRoyale]

Well, I finally got a reply from Lee Valley CS. I'm told the useable blade length is 5/8", so that's almost 16mm. If I can get a minimum of three years of use out if it that's good enough for me.

Edit: I wanted to confirm there's no chance of the adjuster bottoming out or anything else that would prevent one from using the full 16mm. The CS guy told me there isn't provided the adjuster is set up correctly.

 

[PalmRoyale]

Today I was in the neighbourhood of Arnhem were Baptist is located, the Dutch Veritas dealer, so I went in to take a look at the apron plane. It does not have 9mm of useable blade length but 16 mm just like Lee Valley CS told me. Now that I've seen it for myself I immediately bought. It was the only one left and it had an A2 blade but I got them to sell it to me without the blade and they're going to sell it as a replacement blade. Now I just have to order a PM-V11 blade in Germany.

 

[shed9]

Weekly sharpening of blade by freehand = €4.50
Weeks worth of arguing length of said blade = €89.50

 

[PalmRoyale]

That would be true if I didn't have another block plane.