Help please - Japanese style wardrobe sliding doors

[Sportique]

Hi everyone,
I originally posted this in the design thread - but that was probably the wrong place?

I have agreed to build a fitted wardrobe - a fairly straightforward design, except SWMBO would like sliding Japanese-style full height doors.

The doors are approximately 2100x900mm each and the inside of each door will be lined with cotton fabric to give a "Japanese" effect. This design will also be within the weight capacity of the sliding door mechanism.

The outer door frame will be 100x50mm softwood.

The questions I have are:

1. I had planned to use the following sizes of hardwood for the doors: bottom rail 100x38mm, top rail and stiles 50 x 38mm, transoms and mullions 25x25mm (set back flush with the inner plane). Will these sizes give reasonable stiffness/durability?

2. I had hoped to do without any scribing material around the frames, if the walls/ceiling allow is it OK to fix the outer frame directly to wall/ceiling or is it best to always build in a scribing fillet?

3. Finally, the inside partitions/shelves will be 19mm mahogany faced ply, how is it best to fit edging to this?

4. How should I deal with skirts/coving - either remove them, or set the frames into them, or scribe the frames to match??

PS You will notice from the pic that the wardrobe is slightly wider than the alcove

Thanks for any advice and suggestions.

Dave

Below is a sketchup:

 

[WhyDi]

Good morning,

about 1.
The stiffness is also closely related to joinery and your message or drawing tells us nothing about that. How do you plan joints between rails and stiles, transoms and mullions ?

Best regards

 

[ondablade]

I'm no expert Dave, but Japanese (shoji) screens are usually lighter in section than the perimeter sizes you mention. They rely heavily on I think it's half lap joints between the horizontal and vertical members to prevent racking.

Here's a start http://www.shojistyles.com/screens/making.html , but a quick Google under 'shoji' should throw up all sorts of stuff on how to make them. The stock method of construction is very traditional...

 

[innesm]

I made 'japanese style' sliding wardrobe doors once. They used a light cross-section frame (thickness maybe 18mm or even less, width <50mm?) with glued half-lap joints (that combination of half lap and mitred at the corners), and fabric stretched across the back and pinned to the frame. Each door was split in two vertically by a section of wood the same width as the outer frame, and vertically with thin square-section strips (maybe 10mm square?) set into the thicker frame.
The doors slid in grooves cut into lengths of timber above and below, and I stuck that slippy plastic to the base of each door to reduce friction. Because they weren't over-engineered and were thus light, they slid nicely. The stretched, pinned and stapled fabric helps stop racking. I stained the wood using a dark walnut stain, and grooved the upper 'runner' deeply enough that the doors could be slotted in and then dropped down into the floor runners.

Here's a picture:

 

[Sportique]

Thanks for your comments so far.

Whydi - good point! Not yet good enough with Sketchup to include joints. The frame corners will be dowelled, mullions and transoms will be M&T's and the crossings will be half-lap joints.

However, since writing this I have not been able to source the original timber locally, so I shall have to work with 95mmx45mm for the bottom rails, 45x45mm for the stiles and top rail and 25mmx30mm for the transoms and mullions (all slightly smaller section than my original plan - which may not be a bad thing!)

I am trying to get a balance between the light weight of the traditional doors and durability.

Ian - thanks for the link etc. I should say that my intention is that the doors will look like Japanese partitions !

Dave

 

[Sportique]

Innesm - sorry our posts crossed.

Lovely doors! Thanks for the pic and your description. I have already purchased a high quality wheel/track mechanism that will give a smooth opening feel - but I am beginning to think I should reduce the timber sizes further yet!

Keep the advice coming, thanks

Dave

 

[barkwindjammer]

Are you gonna do a WIP with pics Dave?, Innesm you've done an awesome job there thanks for sharing


Jim

 

[innesm]

Dave, sounds like your doors will be a bit less of a bodge than mine (not that I'm not proud of my economical use of materials and effort!).

 

[Graeme]

I did some research for a customer and found this web site, it may give you some more ideas.

http://www.theshojistudio.co.uk/index.html#top

Cheers
Graeme

 

[Benchwayze]

Not sure if this will be of help:

When stretching a canvas for painting, before I prime them, I give them a good coating of size. (Not mandatory with modern acrylic primers) it still, makes the canvas 'drum-tight'.

Maybe something similar is done with the fabric panels perhaps using thin rice-glue?

I wanted to try a wardrobe like this, but SWIMBO hates dust, and she believes they would attract the stuff!

Dunno if she's right mind!

regards
John

 

[woodbloke]

If it's of any interest Toshio Odate is a master shoji screen maker (apart from publishing an excellent book on Jap tools) and has a book out on the subject which might be worth a delve. As far as I can make out, lightness of construction is paramount, with the frames usually being made in really straight grained and well seasoned softwood. Personally, I think they look best in an un-cluttererd, minimalist Jap interior, but that's only my view - Rob

 

[Sportique]

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to reply - all very constructive (sic) comments.

Already I am reducing timber sizes significantly from my original plans in order to achieve the right aesthetic balance.

You fitted joinery professionals out there - any advice re the scribing/skirts/coving questions in the original post please?

Dave

 

[innesm]

You fitted joinery professionals out there - any advice re the scribing/skirts/coving questions in the original post please?

Total amateur here, but I scribed a bit of wood at each side to give a vertical edge for the doors to close against, screwed them to the wall, filled the gap with caulk, and painted the same colour as the walls.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Hi everyone,
I originally posted this in the design thread - but that was probably the wrong place?

I have agreed to build a fitted wardrobe - a fairly straightforward design, except SWMBO would like sliding Japanese-style full height doors.

FWIW: Shoji are never used here as doors for wardrobes. They are sometimes room dividers but most often window privacy screens. The construction is paper on softwood frames with the inside having the dividers and the outside being a single sheet. They new-year cleaning will usually include replacing the paper of the dirty or damaged Shoji.

Wardrobes (which are not common here) or more properly room storage, have very light weight doors similar to hollow core construction, with a covering of paper or wood veneer. these like many room doors are sliding and may have wheels inset into the base which run in shallow groves in the base frame of the cupboard/room with a deep groove in the top frame of the cupboard/room

The construction as others have mentioned is very light weight so the do not usually have any sliding mechanism they just have a very shallow channel at the bottom with a deep one at the top this system is used on doors in the UK though the bottom guide here is very shallow (may be 3mm).

If you have very big ones then at most they will have inset wheels in the base of the door. I don’t think I have seen that kind of hardware in the UK but it is very common here in multiple sizes running from about JPY 150 a pair to around JPY400 a pair

If you need me to take some Pics I may be able to help.

 

[Sportique]

Hello Jerome

thanks for the help and the offer of pics. I am aware how the Japanese use their Shoji, but my (Japanese!) SWMBO has asked for Shoji-style doors on the new fitted wardrobe that I have been "commissioned" to make.

My questions are mainly aimed at

1) Size of timbers for the doors. (Having reduced my original sizes significantly. Provided I can make some good fitting joints, I think the smaller sizes will be a great improvement on my original sizes.)

2) Advice on whether to leave the coving and skirting in place and therefore include scribed fillets.

You fitted joinery professionals out there - any advice re the scribing/skirts/coving questions in the original post please?

Total amateur here, but I scribed a bit of wood at each side to give a vertical edge for the doors to close against, screwed them to the wall, filled the gap with caulk, and painted the same colour as the walls.

Innesm - thats the sort of method I suspect I shall use.

Dave

 

[raffaella]

Hi everyone,

I am in the process of designing a japanese style sliding wall and some one-off furniture and would need a joiner to put it together according to the design...

I am in London and the flat's to work on is too.

If you know anybody's who can help me please let me know,

Thanks in advance

Raffaella