ground source heat pumps - could you heat a swimming pool?

[SammyQ]

Cheers Roger, .
Sam

 

[Pond]

AT LAST!

I know nothing about woodworking (yet :wink: )but I happen to be fully qualified in this field and have been an air conditioning and refrigeration engineer for the last 26 years.

OP: yes of course you could. Heat pumps have been the weapon of choice for swimming pool heating for a while. A ground source heat pump is just a heat pump which collects it's heat from the ground instead of the air.
Heating a swmming pool is a little more complicated in this instance because by taking the heat from the ground around it and transferring it into an underground pool, you are putting the heat back to where it came from, sort of!! It would work though

Gonzjob is confusing air source heat pumps with air-to-air heat pumps. The information given by this person is wrong in every respect.

Ground source heat pumps are now (or will be very very shortly) obselete. Sorry to the person who has just had one commissioned, but it is a fact.

Air source heat pumps are the new 'in thing', as they are far more efficient than ground source and much much cheaper to install cos you don't have to run 3 miles of pipework under your garden!

The main problem with ALL this new technology is that, at present, any heat pump will not heat water to a high enough temperature to use on a standard radiator system, make retro-fitting impossible. Believe me, if retro-fitting was possible I would be a millionaire by now!! All heat pumps, except air to air with warm air fan/coils, are only used for underfloor radiant heating.

I won't bore you anymore with this, as I'm starting to bore myself.

 

[big soft moose]

any heat pump will not heat water to a high enough temperature to use on a standard radiator system, make retro-fitting impossible. Believe me, if retro-fitting was possible I would be a millionaire by now!! All heat pumps, except air to air with warm air fan/coils, are only used for underfloor radiant heating.

I won't bore you anymore with this, as I'm starting to bore myself.

what sort of temperature water can you achieve ?

I'm shortly going to be looking after a campsite where the showers are currently supplied via solar heating , and one of the common complaints is that they are disapointingly luke warm - just wonderring if a GS or AS heat pump might be a realistic alternative.

Also what kind of cost are you looking at for an AS installation ?

 

[Pond]

You can use either GS or AS to heat domestic hot water, as the required temperature is only 45-60 deg c. They are usually fitted with a 'top up' heater, either PV, or immersion to reach higher temps.

I don't know specific costs as we do not (at present) buy or install this technology. It is being targeted at plumbing and heating engineers at present, unfortunately.

I do know that the government is shortly due to initialise a very generous grant based incentive scheme (all about being seen to be green). I've heard rumours that some companies are, or will be offering free issue equipment and installation if the customer signs over their grant, as this scheme is not going to be a once only payment, but an ongoing deal.

You would have to do some serious sums to find out if it would be cost effective to just heat domestic water, though.

 

[johnf]

Pond read this

Here at Ice Energy we've been huge advocates for Ground Source Heat Pumps because of their greater efficiencies over their air source heat pump cousins.

However the ground source solution is not appropriate for everyone, often due to space considerations, yet we have seldom recommended air source in the past because we couldn't find a product which came up to our exacting demands and was suitable for the British market - that was until Mitsubishi brought out their ground breaking air source heat pumps.
While admittedly still not quite as efficient as ground source, giving around 320% efficiencies rather than 400%, it is a huge advancement and a product which stands head and shoulders over its competition.

 

[RogerS]

yes you can definitely heat a swimming pool using Ground Source Heat Pumps.Ground source heat pumps can be applied to a wide range of both domestic and commercial applications, ranging from heating a small residential property with a swimming pool to heating and cooling a large commercial building like a hotel. If a house, commercial property or swimming pool need heating or cooling, then a ground source heat pump can help to reduce running costs. GeoPro Design offer a wide range of heating and cooling solutions, from providing an environmentally friendly solution to your domestic hot water (DHW) requirements through to a fully integrated heating and cooling system that can be controlled remotely

SPAM !!!!!!!

 

[angelboy]

We have got solar to do our pool. 50 evacuated tubes from company called Navitron, http://www.navitron.org.uk. We really need another 10.

What size is your pool?

Is it covered?

 

[bosshogg]

Hello all,

Just wondering, as I don't have any plans to build one (not until I win the lottery anyway ), would a ground source heat pump be able to heat a swimming pool? Just a thought I had whilst in the pub and me and a mate were chatting about it. It seems possible to us, what do you think?

Cheers _Dan.

The answer to your question is both yes and no. Yes if the ground conditions are right, and no if they are not.
Replacing an inefficient boiler at Castle Howard, in Yorkshire, is well documented. The unusual angle employed, was connecting the pump connected to the heat exchange loops laid in a nearby lake, as opposed to excavating large areas of land, to what is an Historical Listed Building.
For-by the upgrade of the heating, considerably upgrading generally, in line with conservation of heat loss, was undertaken. The investment, which wasn't cheap, was recovered fairly quickly in relevant terms, relevant that is to the longevity of the building.
Now I'm not by any stretch of the imagination, supportive of those privileged enough to live in such high echelons as this, but ground heat sources, have yet to be fully exploited.
Not only that, but heat exchange is another fundamental win win scenario, in the offing. Think about it, we continuously output, from buildings of all descriptions, heat, either in the form of spent air, steam from washing machines, tumble dryers and showers/baths, which i know is not steam, but could also be described as condensate'd steam :lol: :lol: :lol:, anyway, if these sources and any others not mentioned, could be intersected with a heat exchanger, the results would be a partial everlasting loop of heat saved. Oh I know this cannot be everlasting, but if it reduced energy consumption by 50%, it would be very beneficial. Now you won't see that in any of the energy companies so called sustainable programmes...why?
Cheers...bosshogg

Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
Albert Einstein (hammer)

 

[RogerS]

Yebbut...don't all these heat-extraction systems require energy ...specifically electrical energy...and that the critical factor is the COP....ie how much heat you extract against how much you have to shell out in electricity. It's OK if, like my near neighbour, he has also installed a huge solar array that generates many kW to drive his vertical bore hole heat source .......

 

[bosshogg]

That leads to a bit of speculation on my part, Oh! and the amount of energy required from the pump is negligible compared to the heat gains. My speculation, is there any boffins out there, with an understanding of air pressure at roof levels, Archimedes screw compression, compressed air and theoretical modelling...I have a theory.
Cheers...bosshogg

[The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
Albert Einstein (hammer) /quote]

 

[RogerS]

That leads to a bit of speculation on my part, Oh! and the amount of energy required from the pump is negligible compared to the heat gains. My speculation, is there any boffins out there, with an understanding of air pressure at roof levels, Archimedes screw compression, compressed air and theoretical modelling...I have a theory.
Cheers...bosshogg
.....

3 kilowatt out for 1 kilowatt in is hardly 'negligible', surely?

 

[johnf]

All I can say is that installing a ground source heat pump for our CH and hot water needs has cut our energy bill by 65%

Also we have now got a 3,5 kwt solar panel array which will produce some of the power needed and more than enough
FIT cash to pay for all of our energy bills for the next 25 years .

I rest my case
PS and I haven't mentioned the renewable heat incentive that kicks in oct 2012 that we qualify for and will give us more cash for 20 years .

 

[RogerS]

That's precisely my point, John. To make ground source heat pumps become economic, you MUST provide the electricity yourself.

 

[9fingers]

I cannot see why you say that Roger.

1Kwh of electricity (say12p) fed into a electric fire will give you 1kWh of heat, Feed 1kWh into a heat pump with say a COP of 3 and you will get 3kW out ( and possibly a bit more waste heat from the motor) so that is 4p per kWh of heating.

Bob

 

[RogerS]

It was the use of the word 'negligible' I was commenting on, Bob.

 

[9fingers]

It was the use of the word 'negligible' I was commenting on, Bob.

Roger, The part of your coment that I did not follow/agree with was this:-

To make ground source heat pumps become economic, you MUST provide the electricity yourself.

Bob

 

[bosshogg]

Unfortunately Rodger has taken negligible out of the statement I made "the amount of energy required is negligible compared to the heat gains"
Now all of life is a trade off you trade off work done to benefits achieved and that applies to all things apart from what we gain from nature.
All the energy we use comes from the Sun, whether it's oil (hydro carbonation), oxygen (more correctly absorbing carbon and giving off oxygen - photosynthesis) or ground source heat (absorption of the Suns energy, in a heat collection mass - Earth) and electricity, whether produced from burning the oil or it's symbiont natural gas, wind - from turbines, nuclear fuel (to be fair, all the heavy elements found on Earth came from other stars - Supernova's), all are provided to us by the Sun. How we (Homo Sapiens) charge for these provisions, that's another matter...bosshogg

 

[gregmcateer]

Hello all,

Just wondering, as I don't have any plans to build one (not until I win the lottery anyway ), would a ground source heat pump be able to heat a swimming pool? Just a thought I had whilst in the pub and me and a mate were chatting about it. It seems possible to us, what do you think?

Cheers _Dan.

Dan,

Although a bore hole ground source heat pump will technically heat a pool, the problem is that if you use a pool year round, the ground around the bore hole doesn't get a chance to 'recover', so the heating gets less and less efficient.

Sorry about that!

Greg

 

[johnf]

That's precisely my point, John. To make ground source heat pumps become economic, you MUST provide the electricity yourself.

Roger the economics of my heat pump are that it is saving me a huge amount on my heating /hot water bill it doesn't matter where the power comes from
The panels only make a good situation better