Good book

[Anonymous]

I moved this from the "Your best books of 2007 so far." thread as that was about non woodwork stuff. Anyway:
I win this one hands down, perhaps the best book of the century if you are into woodwork. I just got it last week - the product of family whipround for combined last christmas and birthday presents.
It's the Richard Bebb book on Welsh Furniture
Utterly spectacular with fascinating pictures on every page.
He goes to great lengths demolishing the myth that design percolates out from the cities and the examples on every page show this. So much imagination, exuberance and sheer talent, mostly anonymous.
The great tradition of vernacular design is so rich that it can make the mimsy products of our well known and much hyped "studio" or "designer" makers look not just feeble and overworked, but positively silly.

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

How much??? £125!! You could buy an overpriced set of chisels for that Jacob, or a collection of sharpening jigs with brass knobs!

 

[Anonymous]

How much??? £125!! You could buy an overpriced set of chisels for that Jacob, or a collection of sharpening jigs with brass knobs!

I know which I'd rather have :lol:

cheers
Jacob

 

[Smudger]

You see this in Motorsport publications. The thinking seems to go along the lines that here we have a bunch of men (mostly) with an interest in X. As X is quite expensive to do they must have disposable income, and they will be just a bit fanatical, so we can bleed them white and a small number will pay up. We can sell books worth £20 for £200 - result.

Sorry - but what can be the justification for pricing a book so highly?

 

[Anonymous]

You see this in Motorsport publications. The thinking seems to go along the lines that here we have a bunch of men (mostly) with an interest in X. As X is quite expensive to do they must have disposable income, and they will be just a bit fanatical, so we can bleed them white and a small number will pay up. We can sell books worth £20 for £200 - result.

Sorry - but what can be the justification for pricing a book so highly?

No comparison I would have thought.
This is a classic - it'll be around for years. 2 large volumes, the result of many years of research in depth, 1500+ plates all of them interesting. Minority interest perhaps, and slightly over-high production quality for my taste.
Doesn't compare but for sheer quantity and quality it's got to be worth 20 or 30 of these typical amazon offerings.

Anyway it's a first for me to be recommending something a bit pricey - I bet many on this group spend more on their collections of completely useless honing jigs
:lol:

cheers
Jacob

 

[Sgian Dubh]

we can bleed them white and a small number will pay up. We can sell books worth £20 for £200.

Sorry - but what can be the justification for pricing a book so highly?

Smudger, I bet if you look carefully you'll notice that the book is not published by a recognised publishing house. The publisher is Saer Books. The production of the book is supported by both the National Museum of Wales and the National Library of Wales.

They have I'd guess expended a great deal of money on producing the book and probably don't expect to sell more than perhaps a 500 copies, or if they hit a purple patch, perhaps 2,000 copies. The book isn't exactly one on a rip roaring topic with mass appeal. Just how many buyers for that topic are out there?

I did a bit of sniffing around and Saer Books don't even have a website, but I did find a referenc to Ann Saer who offers an English/Welsh/English translation service. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this lady is head cook and bottle washer of Saer Books and her whole operation runs from her kitchen table. That's pure guesswork of course.

Then there is the author, Richard Bebb who has spent the last sixteen years putting this all together. If he gets an extremely generous and unheard of 20% of every gross sale of 2000 books at £150 a pop he'll hardly be laughing all the way to the bank with his £30,000 before tax.

I suspect a close analogy to what we see here is that of a professional self employed furniture craftsman producing a one-off dining room table and chairs and asking $20,000 for it. You can get a perfectly serviceable table and chairs from the pine outlet down the road for less than £150, so why buy the one-off? Slainte.

 

[Anonymous]

snip
I suspect a close analogy to what we see here is that of a professional self employed furniture craftsman producing a one-off dining room table and chairs and asking $20,000 for it. You can get a perfectly serviceable table and chairs from the pine outlet down the road for less than £150, so why buy the one-off? Slainte.

I'd agree with you except this last comparison is stretching it a bit. Welsh Furniture is a big bggr and sort of equivalent to say 10 smaller books.
Bit daft comparisons anyway but here's another: my next most favourite book which I bought new HB (probably about £25 but can't remember) is now available for £20 paper back and £90 hardback :shock:
It too is a minority interest short print run etc. In some ways a better book as Kinmonth is more academic/archaeological and includes a lot of ephemera and old stuff still in it's original paintwork, whereas Bebb is an antique dealer first so most stuff looks a bit well cared for, but then you produce the book you can, c'est la vie. He certainly scores high on sheer quantity of information and illustration

cheers
Jacob

 

[Joe90]

I think that's not a bad price... a bit more expensive than I'd like to pay but the books look really nice and Mr G. definitely seems to enjoy them. Possibly they will go up in value over the years as well... I also reckon many members (me included) have spent (wasted) loads of money on things they don't really need.... and it seems Mr G. will have many happy hours looking through those books. They will mean even more as he got them as a present. So they were great value. I'm sure the people who put up the money are very happy as well as they will know how much they mean to Mr G.

Very nice Mr G, may you have many hours enjoyment from them.

I read the thread to see if the book would be 'Techniques of furniture making' by Ernest Joyce, that is a great book I think...

Cheers
Joe

 

[MikeW]

Hi Jacob--I know what I would rather spend my money on as well--books and wood, just not always in that order!

Many thanks for the reference. I'll have to think about that one but it does look very nicely done. If I had the spare cash, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Publishing isn't cheap, especially short runs. Add to that the apparent excellence of the printing, photography and I assume the research and writing? I doubt if it does more than provide discretionary money to spend on the odd thing.

Again, thanks Jacob!

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that Mike and Joe.
Just checked my Kinmonth on Abebooks and my edition new condition now offered at £326 :shock:
Unfortunately mine is well thumbed and beer stained.

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Just to clarify, my post was sarcasim due to Jacobs frequent outbursts when he views that people spend too much money on chisels/honing guides/routers/whatever..

I personnaly have no problem with the cost of the books, my post was just a light-hearted jab at the seeming hyprocisy.

Eitherway, as a product they look really nice and would be a great addition to any collectors library.

 

[Smudger]

OK points taken, but it could be done just as well at a lower price!

 

[Jake]

Just to clarify, my post was sarcasim due to Jacobs frequent outbursts when he views that people spend too much money on chisels/honing guides/routers/whatever..

I personnaly have no problem with the cost of the books, my post was just a light-hearted jab at the seeming hyprocisy.

Eitherway, as a product they look really nice and would be a great addition to any collectors library.

How is it hypocrisy? I don't necessarily agree with Mr G, but his point vis-a-vis tools is that the cheap alternatives are just as good in his view as the expensive things which he thinks hobbyists get obsessed with (I have to say that I think there is something in that, not that it stops me from being a tool freak who spends much more than Mr G would approve of). Perhaps it would be more accurate to say good enough.

Have you pointed to a cheaper alternative source of the same or equivalent information?

 

[Scrit]

I don't necessarily agree with Mr G, but his point vis-a-vis tools is that the cheap alternatives are just as good in his view as the expensive things which he thinks hobbyists get obsessed with.....

Yeah, your alll c*ll*ct*rs, really......

I'll get me coat :wink:

Scrit

 

[Jake]

Yeah, your alll c*ll*ct*rs, really......

I'll get me coat :wink:

I'm no collector, well, I do have a bunch of non-collectable things that I have yet to use ,but that isn't the point. I like good tools, and get pleasure from using them. It isn't a matter of pure cost-effectiveness like it is in business.

 

[Anonymous]

snip
his point vis-a-vis tools is that the cheap alternatives are just as good in his view as the expensive things which he thinks hobbyists get obsessed with (I have to say that I think there is something in that, not that it stops me from being a tool freak who spends much more than Mr G would approve of).
snip

It's not the cost of expensive tools which bothers me - it's more the assumption made mainly by novices that you can buy skill by upgrading.
I think this is really mistaken and that skill is best aquired by sticking with the tools you've got, for better or worse (within reason), and making them work for you. Only then ask if you want to buy something better.
If you chop and change you may never get the hang of it - and there is an army of salesman and a mass of catalogues encouraging you to spend and spend.
On the other hand you can buy information hence the book. Or better - you could buy more wood rather than the latest fashion in tools.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Jake]

It's not the cost of expensive tools which bothers me - it's more the assumption made mainly by novices that you can buy skill by upgrading.
I think this is really mistaken and that skill is best aquired by sticking with the tools you've got, for better or worse (within reason), and making them work for you. Only then ask if you want to buy something better.
If you chop and change you may never get the hang of it - and there is an army of salesman and a mass of catalogues encouraging you to spend and spend.
On the other hand you can buy information hence the book.
cheers
Jacob

You seem to have snipped the bits which better reflected your views then, the 'good enough' bit, and the bit about finding a cheaper book with the same information.

Cheers, another Jacob

 

[Alf]

Yeah, your alll c*ll*ct*rs, really......

I'll get me coat :wink:

Takes one... :wink:

Cheers, Alf