Getting some building work done.....

[DrPhill]

Having moved, we have some jobs that need doing which I feel are beyond my skill level. We have been attempting to get quotes, but this area is notorious for slow responses, apparently.

Anyway, we have one guy who prefers to work on a day rate plu materials. This means that he cannot give a price, just a rough estimate. Is this normal? If so what sort of day rates for general builders (rough ballpark).

Also, for one area, we were trying to decide between tile and lino (or modern equivalent) but the wife has seen 'polished concrete' on an episode of 'Grand Designs' (wed 4th sept 2013) and wondered if that might be a good solution. Does anyone here have experience of this finish?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If there are many unknowns, anyone who knows their job will price to allow for all eventualities - they have to, it's their livelihood.
Conversely, anyone a little unscrupulous can string out a job to maximise income. You pays your money...
Some years ago, my cousin got caught out by a mutual friend. My cousin asked for a price for a job, and my friend looked at it asked which way he wanted it priced - for the job or day rate. My cousin asked for both, and then decided he was better off paying for the job. It duly went ahead, and was finished without a snag in three days instead of the seven that had been allowed. My cousin felt robbed, but as my friend told him there were a multitude of things that could have held things up and he had to price accordingly. I say my cousin was caught out by my friend, but of course he was actually caught out by his own distrust and greed.

 

[Berncarpenter]

If there are many unknowns, anyone who knows their job will price to allow for all eventualities - they have to, it's their livelihood.
Conversely, anyone a little unscrupulous can string out a job to maximise income. You pays your money...
Some years ago, my cousin got caught out by a mutual friend. My cousin asked for a price for a job, and my friend looked at it asked which way he wanted it priced - for the job or day rate. My cousin asked for both, and then decided he was better off paying for the job. It duly went ahead, and was finished without a snag in three days instead of the seven that had been allowed. My cousin felt robbed, but as my friend told him there were a multitude of things that could have held things up and he had to price accordingly. I say my cousin was caught out by my friend, but of course he was actually caught out by his own distrust and greed.

I have to agree Phil on this one ,i prefer to work on a day rate and clients that are worried can speak to, or visit any of my past or present clients for reassurance .If your guy is a good un he will have no problem doing the same .As for the rate i charge £20 per hour £25 with a labourer i think this is fair for my area S Wales you may have to pay a bit more for where you are ?As for polished concrete i think that would be the most expensive option also it will be the most disruptive .Digging up the existing floor noisy dirty and messy and the same for the laying .HTH cheers Bern

 

[blackrodd]

Not seeing the programe mentioned, i can only guess that we are talking troweled finished, part hand and part power float. coloured and natural . I have a fair bit of experience with this domestic and industrial .
If Its a topping on concrete, it ends up being very hard and dense, difficult to allow for the necessary expansion joints in the pattern or finish. and it is prone to cracking.
The Print crete type of stain and finishing can be really good, but, as always, do you're homework on you're contractor. Personally, wood or tile is a good and reliable finish floor surface. Simples. regards Rodders

 

[joethedrummer]

Polished concrete,,,muchos expensive vinyl,,,try ,,karndean or amtico

 

[DrPhill]

Thanks for the replies. You have confirmed that a daily rate is a normal procedure - unsuspicious in itself. You have highlighted the need to check reliability - a daily rate could easily be aused.

As for the concrete thing, it makes a little more sense if I explain the job. This will test my writing powers, but here goes.......

Behind our bungalow is a row of 'sheds' separated from the house by a path a yard wide and six yards long. The sheds are brick built (probably at the same time as the bungalow), their roofs are made of the same tile and they line up perfectly with the bungalow roof. It was inevitable that someone covered the passageway (with clear corrugated plastic which is ugly but effective). A back door was added makin the area more 'inside' than 'outside'.

The bungalow and the outbuildings sit on concrete that is about 4" higher than the concrete path between them (and riddled with drains and covers). The idea was to simplift the drains, raise the concrete to match the level of the kitchen (one end of the passage) and the outbuilsings. A subtle slope would allow the use of the tap to clean dogs, boots and vegetables. (I think the posh set call it a 'wet area')

So what to cover the floor with? Lino or similar would suffer from water underneath. Tiles would be expensive and could get very slippery. Polished concrete might have been a solution, since we are going to be laying concrete anyway. Painting the concrete could be another solution.

Any more thoughts?

(Oh the plan is to replace the corrugated plastic and redo the gutters as part of the same job)

 

[paultnl]

Although it was published a while back (2008) this book is an excellent resource when trying to work out costs for doing various work around the home.

http://www.rics.org/kn/shop/BCIS-Proper ... 17381.aspx

Obviously some allowance needs to be made for inflation but the guide prices are about right.

 

[Lons]

Hi
I assume that the "passage" is open to one or both sides and therefore subject to the weather to some degree! In that case lino is not suitable IMO. Nothing wrong with tiles though as long as correctly laid and you can get non slip type which might be the answer. Polished concrete could be slippery as well so you might need to have an embossed pattern laid if you go down that route. Paint would lift I think.

I'm a builder and I never work on a day rate for several reasons. As a business, I obviously have overheads which I need to cover and there are the inevitable site visits for the purpose of estimates and offering advice as well as time spent organising purchase and delivery of materials.
These overheads are covered partly within my labour charge but the rest out of profit made on materials. If applying a day rate only then I would need to increase that accordingly.

From experience, allowing the customer to organise materials rarely works and then time is lost sorting out the problems. Additionally, I can't give any kind of guarantee on materials I haven't supplied and wouldn't be willing to freely give my time and labour to sort out later problems if those materials were at fault.
On a priced job my customer knows up front what he has to pay, (barring rare unforseen issues), and therefore up to him to accept or refuse the price. Then up to me to do the work within the time I've allowed. I don't charge extra if it goes over** so why should my customer be upset if I manage to do it in less time?

** It is very common for customers to ask "can you just sort this out for me while you are here" - additional work I almost always charge for and people don't realise that it can push back your schedule and affect the next customer down the line.

All that said, there are many tradesmen who are perfectly happy to work for a day rate and would never stretch the job, especially true of those with a good reputation who are much in demand and usually busy so do your homework and choose what suits you best.

cheers
Bob

 

[DrPhill]

Some good points there Lons. It is interesting to hear the perspective of the contractor because it helps me understand the other point of view. We have had another quote - each of our jobs priced complete. I must say that I feel more comfortable with that approach.

I assume that the "passage" is open to one or both sides and therefore subject to the weather to some degree!

Actuallly, no. One end is the door from the kitchen, the other end is a wooden door in a wooden frame.one side is the house, the other is a row of three brick outbuildings. The wooden door and the plastic roof are all that is extra to the original build. It is probably very hard to picture from my description. I should have persevered with sketchup (and Wine).

 

[Lons]

I should have persevered with sketchup (and Wine).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

When you mentioned use of a tap to wash down I assumed it was open :lol: Same arguments appy if regularly getting soaked though.

Just to explain further my situation. I've been in business 16 years or so, have never advertised and am constantly busy. I only accept work from regular customers and those I've been recommended to. I'm inevitably in some of the lists and on the net but almost always refuse cold calls from these sources.

My reasoning is simple and works for me though perhaps not for everyone - customer knows I'm reliable and trustworthy - I know I'll get paid. I get repeat business from customers, many of whom are now friends, since the beginning and several of them don't even ask for a price before I do the work as they know I won't rip them off.

It's enevitable however that having waited, sometimes for months, for me to arrive that they've saved a list of work / ideas for me to look at and what I said about charging is a bit misleading as I often do little jobs for free because I'm a great believer in what goes around, comes around. I usually won't travel more than 20 miles either as I'm lucky enough to get sufficient work locally.

Good luck with the project

Bob

 

[DrPhill]

I usually won't travel more than 20 miles either as I'm lucky enough to get sufficient work locally.

Drat!

 

[RogerS]

Some good points there Lons. It is interesting to hear the perspective of the contractor because it helps me understand the other point of view. We have had another quote - each of our jobs priced complete. I must say that I feel more comfortable with that approach.

But how tied down is your spec? Is what he quoted for what you thought he had quoted for? There are bound to be minor changes that will crop up so budget to allow for these. A decent builder won't overcharge you. Do make sure you take up references or go see what work they have done for others. Personal recommendation is a big plus. One approach adopted by the builder I use is that he wants to remain below the VAT threshold. So I buy in the materials that he asks for. I still pay the VAT on the materials (but having opened a trade account with a couple of builders merchants there is some saving there) but I don't have to pay VAT on his labour.

I assume that the "passage" is open to one or both sides and therefore subject to the weather to some degree!

Actuallly, no. One end is the door from the kitchen, the other end is a wooden door in a wooden frame.one side is the house, the other is a row of three brick outbuildings. The wooden door and the plastic roof are all that is extra to the original build. It is probably very hard to picture from my description. I should have persevered with sketchup (and Wine).

But it could freeze overnight...slippy.

 

[Lons]

But how tied down is your spec? Is what he quoted for what you thought he had quoted for?

That's probably the most important point of all Roger.

In my case, when I quote / estimate, it's done properly, on a letterhead and I ensure all aspects of the work involved are covered. I also always state that additional work or alterations are priced seperately and would be agreed at the time of the discussion. If the changes meant a reduction in costs then that would always be reflected in the final invoice also.
This approach for me ensures that both myself and my customer know exactly what to expect and eliminates any possibility of argument.

That said, as I've stated previously, I also have repeat, long standing customers who just give me a key, ask me to sort it out and don't want a price beforehand. I those instances, my invoice is fully detailed and if there are issues during the work they are always discussed.

Bob

 

[Lons]

I usually won't travel more than 20 miles either as I'm lucky enough to get sufficient work locally.

Drat!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[DrPhill]

The 'fixed price' is from a personal recommend and was accompanied by a description of the job. The 'daily rate' price was an estimate of what it was likely to cost, again with a description of what would be done.

I realise that these prices are subject to alteration according to what is discovered. But there has to be some (apparent?) structure to the decision process. The personal recommend chap does not seem to advertise and is busy - both good signs though his response time seems a little long.

Once we find a good man we will stay with him. And when we employ an expert we almost always defer to his opinions on the ''best thing to do'. Though I do have a horrible habit of wanting to know what is being done and how.

 

[Lons]

The 'fixed price' is from Though I do have a horrible habit of wanting to know what is being done and how.

Nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't "interfere" with the work being done or take up too much time. Best is to fully discuss before the work starts if possible or during tea breaks.

From a personal point of view I'm always more than happy to explain how and why I'm doing something but I detest being stood over and distracted whilst I'm working. Can be dangerous and cause mistakes or even at best is time wasting.

Bob

ps If your recommended guy is a one man band and always busy then it's understandable that his response time might be a little slower as he'll possibly have to fit that in to evenings / weekends.
I've been out 3 evenings this week to look at potential work and have just finished the estimates this morning - now I just need to finish my tax return this afternoon. Ho hum