Flattening, polishing and friction.

[Modernist]

Maybe this is of interest. No point in re-inventing the wheel http://goo.gl/ITVZa

 

[G S Haydon]

Sweet set of chisels. Some day....... My preparation was just the same on my budget blue handled faithfuls. Just enough to create a decent flat behind the cutting edge.
Perhaps you could help me on steel. Do the old tools have a carbon steel (wooden plane blades) like your chisels? I have preparing a big old framing chisel and the steel feels and reacts differently to newer stuff. Is carbon softer and easy to sharpen but looses it's edge a little quicker?

 

[carlb40]

I must admit as a new member to UKWorkshop this thread does not encourage me too much. I'm finding some of the posting her a little aggressive and confrontational over something than can be treated, as most things in life, something to take or leave.
I'm all for various approaches and sharing what works well for each of us, perhaps that should be as far as it goes?

Hence why i asked about a sharpening sticky, so none of this would happen. I can see clearly how some members and their comments can put off new members. Which is a shame as it spoils it for everyone.

 

[Jacob]

So most are just your impression from one or two posts you have misinterpreted in your usual way, or am I misinterpreting.


Pete

Misinterpreting in your usual way.
Start here search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=flattening&start=2505

 

[Racers]

jacob most of those refer to flatening plane soles

 

[Jacob]

jacob most of those refer to flatening plane soles

Read the ones which refer to chisels if that's what you want to do. 2516 matches for "flattening" going back to 2002.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I must admit ... this thread does not encourage me too much. I'm finding some of the posting her a little aggressive and confrontational ...

GS, you've expressed at least good reason why I seldom bother getting involved in a meaningful way in threads on plane and chisel, etc sharpening, and related subjects such as flattening the front/back face (depending on your preferred terminology) of said chisels, plane irons, and even the subject of flattening plane soles.

They're generally just so darned polarising, fractious, repetitive, frequently confusing for the inexperienced woodworker, and tend to become tedious very quickly unless, like me, you get some enjoyment out of watching the same old winnerless fights, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Modernist]

Sweet set of chisels. Some day....... My preparation was just the same on my budget blue handled faithfuls. Just enough to create a decent flat behind the cutting edge.
Perhaps you could help me on steel. Do the old tools have a carbon steel (wooden plane blades) like your chisels? I have preparing a big old framing chisel and the steel feels and reacts differently to newer stuff. Is carbon softer and easy to sharpen but looses it's edge a little quicker?

Old chisels often had laminated blades, (much like modern Japanese ones but much cheaper!) as did some wooden plane irons. You can usually see this if you clean up the side. They are both carbon steel but the thinner cutting edge is harder and holds and edge better whilst the softer backing steel provides support.

Modern chisels are available in either A2 (very similar to high speed steel) as used by Lie Nielsen etc or A1 which is traditional carbon steel. The A2 holds the edge longer but does not hold such a fine edge and sometimes needs to be sharpened at an extra couple of degrees say 32 deg to prevent crumbling. This is not always the case and there seems to be some variation betwen manufacturers and even between batches.

My own solution is to use A2 for high angle planes, where the extra wear life is useful, and A1 or similar for everything else. A2 is a bit harder to sharpen but I don't find this a problem on my waterstones. You may find references to W1 and O1 which I think are water quenched versions of A1 and behave in a similar fashion.

There are other issues, such as the blade section, and the Ashley Isles are great tools but designed for fine work where the thin blades are useful and I use some basic Stanleys and Records for mallet use. Apart from dovetailing I think thin blades can be a problem owing to flexing, which can lead to curved paring cuts, esepecially on long paring chisels and I have had this problem on my Sorby 1/2" recently. Narrow blades need a bit of depth to keep them rigid.

HTH

 

[Jacob]

.......
They're generally just so darned polarising, fractious, repetitive,

Repetitive? Never! :lol: Actually for me it has been a long drawn out process of finding out. I was a crazy sharpener once, but not very good at it as I found the jigs tedious and inconvenient

frequently confusing for the inexperienced woodworker,

Agree, and the best argument for keeping it simple and doing as little as possible. Flattening, polishing, micro bevelling, jigs, complicated systems etc are not for beginners. Or anybody necessarily.

and tend to become tedious very quickly unless, like me, you get some enjoyment out of watching the same old winnerless fights, ha, ha. Slainte.

I quite enjoy it on the whole. Perhaps I should try to get out more.

 

[Graham Orm]

I must admit ... this thread does not encourage me too much. I'm finding some of the posting her a little aggressive and confrontational ...

GS, you've expressed at least good reason why I seldom bother getting involved in a meaningful way in threads on plane and chisel, etc sharpening, and related subjects such as flattening the front/back face (depending on your preferred terminology) of said chisels, plane irons, and even the subject of flattening plane soles.

They're generally just so darned polarising, fractious, repetitive, frequently confusing for the inexperienced woodworker, and tend to become tedious very quickly unless, like me, you get some enjoyment out of watching the same old winnerless fights, ha, ha. Slainte.

+1...I'm lovin it. (homer)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, and at the end of it all, I shall do exactly as I did before it started. It works well enough for me and what I do. I don't really care much whether other people do the same.

 

[powertools]

I must admit as a new member to UKWorkshop this thread does not encourage me too much. I'm finding some of the posting her a little aggressive and confrontational over something than can be treated, as most things in life, something to take or leave.
I'm all for various approaches and sharing what works well for each of us, perhaps that should be as far as it goes?

Don't be put off by this sort of rubbish the forum has changed a lot over the years and some of the best information can be found by searching back through the threads from several years ago. Then in the main there were some experts who offered sound advice on most things but most of them don't seem to post now.

 

[Vann]

I must admit as a new member to UKWorkshop this thread does not encourage me too much. I'm finding some of the posting her a little aggressive and confrontational over something than can be treated, as most things in life, something to take or leave.

I agree. Jacob is like a dog with a bone, and that can get tedious and people get cheesed off.

That's not to say he's wrong. Until I saw this photo, I thought Jacob was completely against flattening backs.

I've never thought anyone was advocating flattening the entire back of chisels or plane blades, just the first 1/4" or less. But with Jacob constantly rubbishing anyone who suggests flattening backs I figured he must be wrong. Now it seems he's actually in agreement with many he agrues with. But then...

I quite enjoy it on the whole. Perhaps I should try to get out more.,

Maybe he should try to get out more.

And then we have the rounded bevel debate. Over the last week I've looked back through my apprenticeship theory notes (from 1973-75) and I see that rounded bevels were considered to be sloppy practice. Same goes for an old text book I picked up years ago (published in 1923). But I have to admit - nearly every old plane and chisel I've bought second-hand has a rounded bevel. Is Jacob wrong, or right but just sloppy, or is this best practice? Who cares? I'll do what I'm comfortable with until I'm no longer comfortable with it. But I do feel sorry for those just starting off...

...They're generally just so darned polarising, fractious, repetitive, frequently confusing for the inexperienced woodworker, and tend to become tedious very quickly unless, like me, you get some enjoyment out of watching the same old winnerless fights, ha, ha. Slainte.

Entertaining? Sometimes. But more often just tedious.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hi Vann,

Thanks for the measured response. I too have read that a convex bevel is sloppy practice (George Ellis - Modern Practical Joinery) but as you said nearly all old tools have some degree of convex to them. Sadly my free hand is a little convex, but they work just fine. All about striking a balance and what works for you.
On flattening, the chisel in the photo does look like mine, although mine has a little more flat because I took 5 mins to flatten the back a little more. If the back of the chisel is concave this flattening happens naturally when the burr is removed any way.
This should be made a "sticky" topic for sure.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Nearly all old tools have some degree of convex...........nearly all old tools you come across are blunt. Doesn't mean they were designed to be blunt.

 

[Dangermouse]

:| :? :shock: :evil: :twisted: :deer (hammer)

 

[MIGNAL]

A few months ago I came across a Guitar that I had made over 30 years ago. T'was like seeing an old friend again. I think it was the 5 th or 6 th one that I had made, of Rosewood, Ebony and a Mahogany Neck. Back then I really hadn't read very many woodworking books, I was still rather fresh from the woodwork class at school. It was before I discovered Japanese waterstones and sharpening guides. All my blades were convex beveled. I could hardly prevent that convex bevel (not that I tried). It was simply a consequence of sharpening by hand and after all I was very young, inexperienced and naive.
30 years later I bumped into my old friend again. Such moments can leave one somewhat embarrassed. This time however I simply smiled, shook my head and wondered how on earth I had managed to create such a decent effort with a Stanley plastic handled No.5, a saw that cost me £1, a set of junk chisels and such a cr*p sharpening system.

 

[Jacob]

..... Jacob is like a dog with a bone,

it's an important bone - it is key to the whole of woodwork

That's not to say he's wrong. Until I saw this photo, I thought Jacob was completely against flattening backs.

I've never thought anyone was advocating flattening the entire back of chisels or plane blades,

Watch the Cosman video. That is exactly what he advocates. Mirror finish, optically accurate. :roll: And others do too. Not sure what DC's view is I haven't bought the video/done the course but it's a well established notion and lots of people are at it.
And this is pure nonsense too. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techn ... g_a_chisel

.... constantly rubbishing anyone who suggests flattening backs

yes and no. I certainly don't rate the cosman approach and I do think that flattening is usually achieved sufficiently every time you turn a chisel over to remove the burr - but sometimes a little more is necessary

And then we have the rounded bevel debate. ....

Thats for another thread. I'm happy to explain it yet again for anybody who still hasn't got it!

 

[bugbear]

...I do think that flattening is usually achieved sufficiently every time you turn a chisel over to remove the burr -

Unless your stone were to have a hollow, in which case you're creating a convex back as well as a convex bevel. :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...I do think that flattening is usually achieved sufficiently every time you turn a chisel over to remove the burr -

Unless your stone were to have a hollow, in which case you're creating a convex back as well as a convex bevel. :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

1 You'd use a flattish bit of the stone. Hand and eye - it's all in your control. The "reference surface" is in your brain.
2 It wouldn't matter anyway, within reason.