flattening chisel backs with lapping film
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Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
May be done bevel down on occasions. Sometimes the most convenient way to remove the last blip etc. There are no rules - you could use a penknife if that would help!marcus":1xs1z696 said:
But anyway I meant if you were to attempt to use a chisel where you would normally use a plane e.g. to flatten a sawn board etc. pointing out that they are very different tools and the 'reference surface' idea is stretched too far.
But when you DO use them to flatten surfaces (say when trimming a tenon cheek), they work just like a plane, albeit one without a mouth. In other words the back of the chisel is flat against the workpiece, enabling the cutting edge to seek out high spots. At least that's how I use them....
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Well sort of, vaguely, etc. etc.marcus":u5oihzea said:
Some particular jobs could be done with one or the other but surely these are not common? Personally I think they work very differently. If you took the plane blade out and used it on its own then it would be working like a chisel! Or if you mounted a chisel in a plane body etc.
Not vaguely at all, that's exactly how I do it. And it's much easier and more precise if the back is flat, otherwise the chisel is inclined to either dig in or skate over the high spots. You can do it with chisel that's not flat, of course, but I can't see any reason to given that it's quick and easy to have a flat chisel....
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
I meant sort of, vaguely, like a plane. Chisels don't have mouths. Big difference!
Here's my 2 cents on the vexed question of sharpening standards, ancient and modern.
Jacob correctly points out that more often than not when you buy old tools they do not show evidence of the sort of back flattening and polishing that we find today. I suspect there are several reasons for this:
1) In the past the majority of chisels and planes were used for fairly rough work, and on site, and didn't need to be that sharp or precise.
2) The timber that was available in the past was usually of much better quality than we have today, and it was air dried, not kilned. It was therefore much less likely to tear out when being planed, or to crumble when being pared than modern timber. It was more workable, and hence could be worked satisfactorily with less sharp tools.
3) In spite of our rose tinted spectacles about the craftsmanship of the past, much of it was done to quite a low standard. In everyday work the quality of construction and finish was usually quite low, and joints were often roughly made, relying to a surprising degree on wedges and the gap filling properties of hide glue. And filler! If you spend any time repairing antiques you soon find out how rough a lot of the work was.
4) Sharpening and lapping took much longer, and cost more, because the technology to do it was less developed. Because of this it would often have been economic to make up for lack of sharpness with sheer muscle power. Labour was cheap and expendable and carpenters getting arthritis at 35 was considered par for the course.
When you come across antique tools that would have been used in the more demanding situations where great accuracy is needed (eg pattern makers tools, or tools from the very top end of cabinet making etc.) they are very likely to show evidence of back polishing etc
Today we are in a different situation:
1) Our timber is usually kiln dried and of a poorer quality than in the past, and is much more inclined to tear out; sharper tools really help with this.
2) We live in an environment where we are surrounded by things made by machine which have an almost perfect finish, and next to this the everyday standards acceptable in work of the past do not stand up to scrutiny. In furniture making, joinery that would once have been acceptable now looks shoddy, so there is more interest in anything that makes working to a finer standard easier and quicker.
3) For most of us, modern life is easier and less physical than in the past; people are less willing to put up with unnecessary physical toil, and find that sharper and more refined tools make things less strenuous and more pleasant — particularly because the technology now exists to achieve these things quite easily. A bit wimpy, but probably better for us on the whole.
4) Because of the rise of the machine, a lot more hand tools are being used today by people interested in doing the finest work they can, rather than for everyday jobbing work as in the past; it is therefore natural that there is more interest in the techniques that are helpful in this sort of work.
Having said all that I agree that the antics of the real sharpening aficionados are often over the top for almost any normal use of the tools. It's about balance I suppose.
Jacob correctly points out that more often than not when you buy old tools they do not show evidence of the sort of back flattening and polishing that we find today. I suspect there are several reasons for this:
1) In the past the majority of chisels and planes were used for fairly rough work, and on site, and didn't need to be that sharp or precise.
2) The timber that was available in the past was usually of much better quality than we have today, and it was air dried, not kilned. It was therefore much less likely to tear out when being planed, or to crumble when being pared than modern timber. It was more workable, and hence could be worked satisfactorily with less sharp tools.
3) In spite of our rose tinted spectacles about the craftsmanship of the past, much of it was done to quite a low standard. In everyday work the quality of construction and finish was usually quite low, and joints were often roughly made, relying to a surprising degree on wedges and the gap filling properties of hide glue. And filler! If you spend any time repairing antiques you soon find out how rough a lot of the work was.
4) Sharpening and lapping took much longer, and cost more, because the technology to do it was less developed. Because of this it would often have been economic to make up for lack of sharpness with sheer muscle power. Labour was cheap and expendable and carpenters getting arthritis at 35 was considered par for the course.
When you come across antique tools that would have been used in the more demanding situations where great accuracy is needed (eg pattern makers tools, or tools from the very top end of cabinet making etc.) they are very likely to show evidence of back polishing etc
Today we are in a different situation:
1) Our timber is usually kiln dried and of a poorer quality than in the past, and is much more inclined to tear out; sharper tools really help with this.
2) We live in an environment where we are surrounded by things made by machine which have an almost perfect finish, and next to this the everyday standards acceptable in work of the past do not stand up to scrutiny. In furniture making, joinery that would once have been acceptable now looks shoddy, so there is more interest in anything that makes working to a finer standard easier and quicker.
3) For most of us, modern life is easier and less physical than in the past; people are less willing to put up with unnecessary physical toil, and find that sharper and more refined tools make things less strenuous and more pleasant — particularly because the technology now exists to achieve these things quite easily. A bit wimpy, but probably better for us on the whole.
4) Because of the rise of the machine, a lot more hand tools are being used today by people interested in doing the finest work they can, rather than for everyday jobbing work as in the past; it is therefore natural that there is more interest in the techniques that are helpful in this sort of work.
Having said all that I agree that the antics of the real sharpening aficionados are often over the top for almost any normal use of the tools. It's about balance I suppose.
Lons
Established Member
+1 Marcus
The only thing I would add to that is no-one knew or cared how anyone else did it apart from within their own little community and therefore the views of the old guys were "cast in stone" and passed down to apprentices as "the way it must be done".
The internet and forums like tis have a lot to answer for :lol:
Bob
The only thing I would add to that is no-one knew or cared how anyone else did it apart from within their own little community and therefore the views of the old guys were "cast in stone" and passed down to apprentices as "the way it must be done".
The internet and forums like tis have a lot to answer for :lol:
Bob
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
I seem to recall hearing somewhere that it was common for many woodworking tools to be sharpened by travelling sharpeners (knife grinders or cutlers maybe[?]) that went from workshop to workshop regrinding and putting a keen edge on chisels, planes, saws, etc. If that's true, and I have no evidence of it being so, I wonder how many woodworkers actually sharpened their own tools, and how many palmed the job off to the travelling guy, or passed the job over to some put-upon apprentice? Slainte.
barkwindjammer
Established Member
I have a different long and winding road for you to commit your imaginings 
The picture on Andy Ts avatar-a charming spectacle, the young carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker-if you will
sleeves rolled up-and with a look of wisened determination about his brow.
Through the mist time moves back.
he's now 14yrs old, sporting a 'no messing' haircut, crafted by his own dear Mother not 2 days ago,
he carries a tin with a wire hooped handle and an apple in each pocket-today is his first day in the 'work-shoppe'
He's to be wrought and melded into the ways of the cabinetmaker, Chandler, sculptor.
See those lads over there ?, yes Johnny and his co horts, they're 3rd years, see how they preen and hone and polish
their blades-every lunch break, and also at home, look how those irons and steels glint like the teeth of a murderer-primed, dangerously sharp, enough to make the blood run dark and cold.
Those lads have a plane, some have 2, and several chisels each, and a pencil cleft behind their ears.
Soon Andy will be allowed to do this on his very own plane iron-
3 months of fetching, carrying, sweeping and scurrying like a runt at the bark of Johnny and the older dogs-and then he will have earned his cast Iron landau-which will skate and plough his future.
The top dogs don't seem to notice or bother with Andy, they have their own underlings, they are the Craftsmen.
Their art and skill in such high order that one never sees them hone, or polish, or preen their tools, maybe they dont ?,
maybe their mastery is such that when wielded in such esteem hands the iron yields to their will, like the great locomotives or steam liners of the day-the captain commands.
Like any cherished thing when first given-it is cared for, nurtured, embelished-loved.
When the Captain takes the helm, he knows his ship, the waters he has coarsed, the reefs and snags-and the destination.
When we look back we all have had new paths to beat, new experiences, new horizons, hurdles and pitfalls-we attain the finish line, destination, Port -by some degree or other, and along the way we had higher standards and goals to reach, Johnny and his pals ?
They might be in Port ?, still charting the same waters ?, or possibly still sneering at the new guy ?-don't matter, he is there to
set the measure.
The picture on Andy Ts avatar-a charming spectacle, the young carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker-if you will
sleeves rolled up-and with a look of wisened determination about his brow.
Through the mist time moves back.
he's now 14yrs old, sporting a 'no messing' haircut, crafted by his own dear Mother not 2 days ago,
he carries a tin with a wire hooped handle and an apple in each pocket-today is his first day in the 'work-shoppe'
He's to be wrought and melded into the ways of the cabinetmaker, Chandler, sculptor.
See those lads over there ?, yes Johnny and his co horts, they're 3rd years, see how they preen and hone and polish
their blades-every lunch break, and also at home, look how those irons and steels glint like the teeth of a murderer-primed, dangerously sharp, enough to make the blood run dark and cold.
Those lads have a plane, some have 2, and several chisels each, and a pencil cleft behind their ears.
Soon Andy will be allowed to do this on his very own plane iron-
3 months of fetching, carrying, sweeping and scurrying like a runt at the bark of Johnny and the older dogs-and then he will have earned his cast Iron landau-which will skate and plough his future.
The top dogs don't seem to notice or bother with Andy, they have their own underlings, they are the Craftsmen.
Their art and skill in such high order that one never sees them hone, or polish, or preen their tools, maybe they dont ?,
maybe their mastery is such that when wielded in such esteem hands the iron yields to their will, like the great locomotives or steam liners of the day-the captain commands.
Like any cherished thing when first given-it is cared for, nurtured, embelished-loved.
When the Captain takes the helm, he knows his ship, the waters he has coarsed, the reefs and snags-and the destination.
When we look back we all have had new paths to beat, new experiences, new horizons, hurdles and pitfalls-we attain the finish line, destination, Port -by some degree or other, and along the way we had higher standards and goals to reach, Johnny and his pals ?
They might be in Port ?, still charting the same waters ?, or possibly still sneering at the new guy ?-don't matter, he is there to
set the measure.
Lons
Established Member
barkwindjammer":22b2rx0z said:I have a different long and winding road for you to commit your imaginings
The picture on Andy Ts avatar-a charming spectacle, the young carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker-if you will
sleeves rolled up-and with a look of wisened determination about his brow.
Through the mist time moves back.
he's now 14yrs old, sporting a 'no messing' haircut, crafted by his own dear Mother not 2 days ago,
he carries a tin with a wire hooped handle and an apple in each pocket-today is his first day in the 'work-shoppe'
He's to be wrought and melded into the ways of the cabinetmaker, Chandler, sculptor.
See those lads over there ?, yes Johnny and his co horts, they're 3rd years, see how they preen and hone and polish
their blades-every lunch break, and also at home, look how those irons and steels glint like the teeth of a murderer-primed, dangerously sharp, enough to make the blood run dark and cold.
Those lads have a plane, some have 2, and several chisels each, and a pencil cleft behind their ears.
Soon Andy will be allowed to do this on his very own plane iron-
3 months of fetching, carrying, sweeping and scurrying like a runt at the bark of Johnny and the older dogs-and then he will have earned his cast Iron landau-which will skate and plough his future.
The top dogs don't seem to notice or bother with Andy, they have their own underlings, they are the Craftsmen.
Their art and skill in such high order that one never sees them hone, or polish, or preen their tools, maybe they dont ?,
maybe their mastery is such that when wielded in such esteem hands the iron yields to their will, like the great locomotives or steam liners of the day-the captain commands.
Like any cherished thing when first given-it is cared for, nurtured, embelished-loved.
When the Captain takes the helm, he knows his ship, the waters he has coarsed, the reefs and snags-and the destination.
When we look back we all have had new paths to beat, new experiences, new horizons, hurdles and pitfalls-we attain the finish line, destination, Port -by some degree or other, and along the way we had higher standards and goals to reach, Johnny and his pals ?
They might be in Port ?, still charting the same waters ?, or possibly still sneering at the new guy ?-don't matter, he is there to
set the measure.
=D> =D> =D>
1/ Is the tool as sharp as it could be?
2/ Is the tool as sharp as I can get it?
3/ Would the tool be even sharper if I bought more gear to sharpen it with?
4/ Is the tool more than adequately sharp for the job in hand?
Life is too short to spend too long worrying about 1/, 2/ and 3/.
2/ Is the tool as sharp as I can get it?
3/ Would the tool be even sharper if I bought more gear to sharpen it with?
4/ Is the tool more than adequately sharp for the job in hand?
Life is too short to spend too long worrying about 1/, 2/ and 3/.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
They still do it exactly the same but differently.Sgian Dubh":3j0z7np7 said:
Our local saw doctor* does a round every two weeks and takes away (or returns) anything you want sharpening, from big industrial tooling down to router cutters or hand sharpening hand saws. Most people do it themselves most of the time, but occasionally use the experts to bring them up to scratch.
*a modern firm with lots of kit, not just an old bloke with a wheel and a bicycle!
In "The Joiner and Carpenter" talking about the 1830's, Hardware shops in London did big business on a Saturday grinding Carpenters tools ready for the following week.
It also states that a number of cabinet makers would not allow grindstones on their premises but used "Rubstones" instead.
Turkey or Charney lubricated with water and kept flat by rubbing it against another stone. It was considered bad practice to leave the stone hollow and a fine could be charged.
Rod
It also states that a number of cabinet makers would not allow grindstones on their premises but used "Rubstones" instead.
Turkey or Charney lubricated with water and kept flat by rubbing it against another stone. It was considered bad practice to leave the stone hollow and a fine could be charged.
Rod
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
marcus":nis1aze7 said:
I think that's a very valid point in this context. Until about WW2, most furniture was made in the 'traditional' manner, even if it was made in large factories (though some such used mechanised joint-cutting from about 1880 onwards). That included the cheaper furniture, which because it was cheap, a craftsman would not have had many hours to lavish on over fine details. In consequence, most joinery was hidden, often behind applied mouldings, so did not need to be anything other than strictly functional.
The fashion for exposed joinery came in with the Arts and Crafts movement, which though it has had huge influence on furniture design, never amounted to anything other than a tiny fraction of furniture actually made during the early 20th century, and most of that for the high-end market (despite the socialist available-to-all aspirations of Morris, Ruskin and others).
In consequence, the tools needed to make all but the very finest furniture did not need to be prepared to the nth degree. They just needed to be sharp enough to get waste wood shifted, and components of furniture banged together as fast as possible.
Older chisels, made pre-WW2 were usually hand ground and finished, and some variation of flat face flatness can still be detected on secondhand examples. That the original owners didn't bother to lap them flat is probably an indication that they felt no need to do so. As long as it would take an edge and cut wood, it did what they expected of it.
Modern chisels are usually machine ground, so are fairly flat on the back to start with. The main problem is grinder marks, and once those are removed from the flat face by the edge, the chisel will be good for almost any duty.
Racers
Established Member
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Hi,
The trouble with basing your ideas on several related items is that its possibly not typical, I have found Embassy cigarette packets used to shim lots of hinges, it doesn't mean all chippys where smokers and they all smoked Embassy.
Pete
The trouble with basing your ideas on several related items is that its possibly not typical, I have found Embassy cigarette packets used to shim lots of hinges, it doesn't mean all chippys where smokers and they all smoked Embassy.
Pete
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
A bit of a dead end as far as UK was concerned.Cheshirechappie":x066h40g said:
But it was taken up in Europe esp the Bauhaus who unlike Morris etc were not afraid of machinery and had no romantic notions of a lost golden age. As such became a (the) major factor in modern design. They also espoused progressive socialist ideas from Morris etc. This is why Hitler hated them. I think Hitler would have liked dismal UK A&C brown stuff, exposed DTs and all!
Paxton and industrialists, Mackintosh and imported art nouveau, more important as design influences in UK
These aspirations eventually met by Habitat, Ikea etc with a long but continuous link via Bauhaus back to Morris.
NB Arts n Crafts is supposed to epitomise high end crafts (that's what they tell us but you don't have to believe it!) but in fact it was more of a design movement and much stuff was made to normal standards by normal artisans, but to A&C designs
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":2mw8bick said:
Yes - the original A&C items were rather fancily hand crafted in expensive materials, and sadly for their socialist ideals "the people" simply couldn't afford them.
BugBear
Not sure who 'they' are! It was a broad movement and you're right that there was plenty of stuff made to indifferent standards (generally the normal story of people spotting a trend and cashing in). But the best stuff can stand next to pretty much anything — like this:
(Ashbee and Broadwood)
http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...dlib-images/1996.582.jpg&width=500&height=500
Or this:
(morris and co)
http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...dlib-images/1985-659.jpg&width=500&height=500
or this:
(Ernest Gimson)
http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...adlib-images/1971.44.jpg&width=500&height=500
Or this:
(morris and co)
http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/...6am2731_william_morris_st_georges_cabinet.jpg
Or this:
(Phyllis Baron)
http://agmlib.cheltenham.gov.uk/www...adlib-images/1957.71.jpg&width=500&height=500
In my opinion hardly anyone, including most of the 'big' names, is doing work this good today. Or perhaps no one at all. There's lots of skill out there, but I'm convinced something has been lost.
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