First plane Advice please

[sometimewoodworker]

I've just got my first new plane. It is a Stanley 1-12-060 and I suspect that it might need a little modification.
Here are a couple of Pics that show what seems to need a bit of fettling.

When the blade is in a working position it seems to extend an excessive amount. Also the adjustable mouth is as far forward as it can go in this pic.

If that is the case then I will get to work with a file etc.
If indeed the sole at the point that the blade projects is too thick a picture or 2 would be helpful.

I do know that the blade can use a bit of TLC.

The second question is the sole. I thought that plane soles should be smooth, this isn't as you can see here.

Does the sole need smoothing? Or will it be just as good as it is?

 

[Jacob]

The sole looks crudely machined but it doesn't need to be shiny smooth to work OK. If you just give it a quick pass over some fine wet n dry that should remove the sharpness of the machining and reduce friction. Just one or two swipes. Even if you don't do that it will lose that sharpness anyway, after a bit of use. Every time you use it scribble candle wax over the sole. Literally a scribble, really quickly - like writing your signature but with a candle end.
Can't see what's wrong with the blade if anything. Needs to be bevel up. Just give it a go perhaps? Start with the blade well back and advance it a bit at a time until it starts to cut. Then trim it sideways until it cuts evenly.
NB this is a block plane and is not ideal for general purposes. It's for one handed trimming of edges etc or ends of tenons.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

The sole looks crudely machined but it doesn't need to be shiny smooth to work OK. If you just give it a quick pass over some fine wet n dry that should remove the sharpness of the machining and reduce friction. Just one or two swipes. Even if you don't do that it will lose that sharpness anyway, after a bit of use. Every time you use it scribble candle wax over the sole. Literally a scribble, really quickly - like writing your signature but with a candle end.

Thanks I've got that info.

Can't see what's wrong with the blade if anything. Needs to be bevel up. Just give it a go perhaps?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Its not the blade I think may need adjustment. It is the part that the front of the blade rest on.

Start with the blade well back and advance it a bit at a time until it starts to cut. Then trim it sideways until it cuts evenly.

That is exactly what I have done and as you can see the blade is projecting a long way. That is my question, Is this projection usual with this kind of plane?

NB this is a block plane and is not ideal for general purposes. It's for one handed trimming of edges etc or ends of tenons.

Yes that is exactly why I got it.

 

[AndyT]

Like Jacob said, your pictures show the blade upside down, and I think your problems will disappear if you mount it bevel up. (Don't be embarrassed - we've all done it!)

But to answer your specific question - I just checked my one, and the forward edge of the sole (where the blade rests) is cut square to the sole and is about 1mm thick. I think if you tried to file the slope down any thinner you would just leave too little metal there - and it's not necessary to do so.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Like Jacob said, your pictures show the blade upside down, and I think your problems will disappear if you mount it bevel up. (Don't be embarrassed - we've all done it!).

Hi Andy
I'm not embarrassed the blade is mounted correctly with the bevel up. It is probably the lighting that seems to show it bevel down.

Here is another shot.

FWIW it cant be mounted bevel down and still be adjusted to cut.

.

But to answer your specific question - I just checked my one, and the forward edge of the sole (where the blade rests) is cut square to the sole and is about 1mm thick. I think if you tried to file the slope down any thinner you would just leave too little metal there - and it's not necessary to do so.

Does your blade project as far as mine?
To get any cut I need at least 5mm projection from the supported point and that gives transparent shavings.

 

[AndyT]

Does your blade project as far as mine?

No, I just use the threaded adjuster to wind the blade back, then turn it the other way to counteract backlash, and adjust it so that the blade projection suits the cut I want - which for a block plane is normally quite thin - but it can be wound back so as to disappear entirely.

You do have the adjuster correctly seated in the cut-out in the blade, so it works, do you?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Does your blade project as far as mine?

No, I just use the threaded adjuster to wind the blade back, then turn it the other way to counteract backlash, and adjust it so that the blade projection suits the cut I want - which for a block plane is normally quite thin - but it can be wound back so as to disappear entirely.

To get the finest of cuts it needs to be that far out. At any less and because of the mounting point's thickness the blade doesn't project far enough to cut. BTW mine is a 13 1/2 degree. so may not be the same as yours.

You do have the adjuster correctly seated in the cut-out in the blade, so it works, do you?

Yes

 

[AndyT]

I've just looked at your pictures again and (I think) realised what you were asking.

I thought at first you were saying "my plane blade sticks out too far vertically" meaning "it takes too thick a shaving, and won't retract into the body". That would be something wrong.

But what you are actually saying is that the the horizontal distance between the last bit of the body and the cutting edge looks wrong to you, (ie, looks too long) and are asking if it is wrong.

It's not wrong - it's just geometry - it's what you get if you have a right angled triangle with a height of about 1mm and an apex of 13 1/2 degrees!

And the proof must be that you can get a thick or thin shaving at will, or no shaving at all.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I've just looked at your pictures again and (I think) realised what you were asking.

I thought at first you were saying "my plane blade sticks out too far vertically" meaning "it takes too thick a shaving, and won't retract into the body". That would be something wrong.

But what you are actually saying is that the the horizontal distance between the last bit of the body and the cutting edge looks wrong to you, (ie, looks too long) and are asking if it is wrong.

That is exactly the question I thought I was asking.

It's not wrong - it's just geometry - it's what you get if you have a right angled triangle with a height of about 1mm and an apex of 13 1/2 degrees!

Yes I get that as well, though school was a long time ago I do remember a bit .

I just wanted to know if the hight of about 1mm was normal for a 13.5 degree block plane. If so then I don't need to do anything about the plane body.

And the proof must be that you can get a thick or thin shaving at will, or no shaving at all.

Thin or none is easy, thick maybe but the throat can't be adjusted open enough for that and with this plane I probably wouldn't want (or need) a thick shaving.

 

[Jacob]

Perhaps just take it back to the shop, or use it but look around for an older one to replace it.

 

[bugbear]

When the blade is in a working position it seems to extend an excessive amount. Also the adjustable mouth is as far forward as it can go in this pic.

Pixel counting based on a blade width of 34 mm gives a projection of 4.6mm, which is close to what you said, so that all seems sensible.

With a bed angle of 13.5 degree, we can calculate that the "step" at the bottom of the bedding is tan(13.5) * 4.6 = 1.1mm, which also confirms your direct observation.

I'll check out these sizes on my (quite old) old Stanley #60 1/2 and LV Low Angle tonight, (if I remember, and if no-one beats me to it).

BugBear

 

[Richard T]

Looks like that iron sticks out a long way unsupported to me - it also looks odd to have the mouth ground back to a flat edge like that on a BU. On my '70s Stanley block there's about 1/8" projection before making first contact with wood.

Do you suppose it may be to avoid LA mouth chipping at all costs by removing that part of the mouth likely to get chipped?

 

[jimi43]

I have a fairly new Stanley 60 1/2....

...which is an "ok" version but I want to find an older one this year if I can. The new ones are absolute rubbish and this one is just about ok....

The bed behind the edge of the iron is almost to a point....

.....you can see it better here....

...and the iron does not stick out that much...maybe a bit more than the 1/8th inch Richard talks about..

This is the front closed up for tight mouth and fine shavings....

...and fully open and course cut projection.

Can you tell us what make and how long ago you bought yours. Given the quality of the sole/casting it looks to be a Far Eastern one of dubious origin. If so....I would suggest sending it back/selling it on and getting an older Stanley or Record one...

There are also a number of top notch makers selling this type of plane but they ain't cheap!

Apart from the benefit of the adjustable mouth...I tend to use my old infill chariot for this type of work.

Jim

 

[Jacob]

My very ordinary (but 30 year old) Stanley 220 has a similar amount of projection - 2 to 3 mm.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I have a fairly new Stanley 60 1/2....

...which is an "ok" version but I want to find an older one this year if I can. The new ones are absolute rubbish and this one is just about ok....

The bed behind the edge of the iron is almost to a point....

.....you can see it better here....

...and the iron does not stick out that much...maybe a bit more than the 1/8th inch Richard talks about..

This is the front closed up for tight mouth and fine shavings....

...and fully open and course cut projection.

Thanks Jim. It is then as I suspected. Having seen yours mine clearly needs work to bring it to a similar configuration.

Can you tell us what make and how long ago you bought yours.

I just got it from leavalley and it is a Stanley.

Given the quality of the sole/casting it looks to be a Far Eastern one of dubious origin. If so....I would suggest sending it back/selling it on and getting an older Stanley or Record one...

While that would be best if I were anywhere near them. I will have to put it down to experience and go to work with some files.

There are also a number of top notch makers selling this type of plane but they ain't cheap!

Well that is why I got this one because it was cheap, and it has shown itself to be cheap

Apart from the benefit of the adjustable mouth...I tend to use my old infill chariot for this type of work.

Jim

Thanks again.

 

[AndyT]

Jerome

This may sound a bit basic, but we've been through a long and detailed discussion and nobody else has asked it - this aspect of your plane that you think is a problem - does it actually show up when you use the plane?

In other words, can you use it to do the things that you bought it for - trim end grain; take the sharpness off a long edge; bring a recalcitrant knot level with the surrounding surface, etc?

 

[bugbear]

I just checked out my LA block planes. My original (cheap) s/h Stanley #60 1/2 has a 4mm blade projection when set for a "zero thickness" shaving.

A newer Stanley #60 1/2 (a tool dealer at an auction had literally a sackfull at a low price!) shows 3mm.

My LV LA shows 2mm.

Conclusion - it varies.

Rob Lee has pointed out that low angle beds mean that small variations are critical. In the case of a 12 1/2 degree bed, it's a 1:4.5 ratio, so the 1mm variation in blade projection between my 2 Stanleys would be caused by a mere 0.2 mm variation in the machined height of the bed.

BugBear

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Jerome

This may sound a bit basic, but we've been through a long and detailed discussion and nobody else has asked it - this aspect of your plane that you think is a problem - does it actually show up when you use the plane?

In other words, can you use it to do the things that you bought it for - trim end grain; take the sharpness off a long edge; bring a recalcitrant knot level with the surrounding surface, etc?

That I will discover when I get to my workshop in late February.

However Jim's photos have shown be that there is quit a bit of room for improvement. Currently it is not possible to have the mouth open anywhere as much a Jim shows that his can.

Also the machined area shown in my second picture, which is the area that will be modified, is not flat at the moment.

My reason for asking in advance is that when I get to my workshop I don't have internet access with any reasonable speed. and then only once every 2 weeks or so

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I just checked out my LA block planes. My original (cheap) s/h Stanley #60 1/2 has a 4mm blade projection when set for a "zero thickness" shaving.

A newer Stanley #60 1/2 (a tool dealer at an auction had literally a sackfull at a low price!) shows 3mm.

My LV LA shows 2mm.

Conclusion - it varies.

Rob Lee has pointed out that low angle beds mean that small variations are critical. In the case of a 12 1/2 degree bed, it's a 1:4.5 ratio, so the 1mm variation in blade projection between my 2 Stanleys would be caused by a mere 0.2 mm variation in the machined height of the bed.

BugBear

Thanks

As I have just mentioned in reply to Andy the machined part of the bed isn't perfect by a long shot so I will be cleaning that part up anyway. All I will need to do is take it down a bit, then it should be in a similar range to yours.