Filing mouth on 4 1/2 Record plane to fit veritas blade/iron

[Bm101]

Hi, in a fit of holiday madness and most of a bottle of 6 year old sloe gin, I decided to go shiny and buy a new veritas pmv blade and cap iron for the 4 1/2 record plane I'd found for a song a couple of days previous. Yeh I know. Don't rub it in. Bought it on Fine tools where they helpfully included the advice I might need to widen the mouth. 'Pah! there's nothing I can't do!' responded the sloe gin.

So, please don't tell me off. Are there any tips you can share that might make the filing a little less dubious? I know its probably overkill for the price of the record, but there you go. Its cleaning up very nicely and I really don't want to ruin it, I blame the sister in law. She made me buy it. And drink the gin.
I've looked through the forums, but i couldn't find anything specifically for a 4 1/2. I'd appreciate any advice about mouth width for this class of plane and if there's a trick to it like perhaps clamping on a block to the bed to use as a guide. What might be the recommendations for an 'ideal' mouth. It will go, there's no doubt. What i really don't want to do is over open it. Is it file-test-file-test etc till true? I'll be careful near the body/sides and I saw a tip about attaching some wet n dry to a stick to clean up after. The frog at the moment is flush, I could move it back a little, but would this not affect the plane, even with the thicker veritas set up? TBH, if possible, Id rather get the mouth right now so i can still use the record blade in there occasionally for ripping if i regrind it.

The blade fits the y adjustment ok, and even if the depth nut is a little fine, its got some play. So yeh, it's really about mouth opening tips if that's ok. It would be really appreciated. At the very worst you have someone new to laugh at. o_0

Any help or advice would really be appreciated, many thanks.

 

[Racers]

File the back of the mouth it will have the same affect but with none of the risk.

Pete

 

[deema]

Intriguing, I bought a few years back from Veritas a blade and cap iron for my Record 4 1/2. It was the set designed specifically for the Record / Stanley plane. Out popped the old blade and cap and in slid the new without any tweaks or modifications.

Silly question, but have you adjusted the frog backward to open the mouth right up? You can normally drive the proverbial bus through the mouth once the frog is set back fully.

To open a mouth you would normally scribe a line across the sole with an Engineers square and then using a very fine file and the frog removed file the mouth to the line. Open it up only a 1/32" at a time in old money. The adage is that you can take off but you can't put back on!

 

[Bod]

What state is the original blade in?
I would get the plane working with the old blade first, if all's good, then see about fitting the new.
If the body is not good then fitting an expensive new blade, will at best be a waste of time.

Bod

 

[Trafalgar]

I'd be shocked if that wouldn't fit by simply moving the frog back a little.

 

[D_W]

Use your square and marker an amount of mouth to file off, tape the sides of the mouth (or make a file safe edge by grinding off the side teeth) and file it.

Run the square from both sides of the plane to ensure the mouth is square to the sides.

The amount that you file of is but a feather each time.

I've bought and subsequently discharged a lot of planes, and used to believe that my experience would be better with a replacement iron (I suppose at the time, it probably was). I only ever had to file two mouths for lack of room, and they were on older planes. My suggestion would be to set the frog flush with the back of the plane's mouth, and then if it doesn't fit, you can file. You have a little more room than that to move it back, but not much, or the bevel will rest on the sole if it's not kept in good nick, and you'll find trouble.

 

[Bm101]

Thanks for the advice all! The plane seems to my eyes in good nick. I dunno if it would pass some peoples version of 'true'. I've worked the bed on various grades of wet and dry and without being an engineer it looks the job. (I slipped a disc fairly recently so I havent been able to test it real life, thats on the mend though). I had the notion that the frog was fairly immovable from the flush with the back of the mouth, but I'll redress that and give it a test in the next day or two. I suppose, now its been suggested that with the thickness of the blade and the cap iron that it's possible that I could move the frog back. It just never occurred to me before. Live and learn. I just presumed the angle of the frog had to lie in line with the mouth angle. I'll have a play around over the next couple of days and keep you updated. It's refreshing to find a community like this. I've always been working with tools and had a varied interest in woodworking pretty much forever. From bodging and green woodworking (badly ) when i was 20, to last year when I replaced most of my bay windows with a bnd workbench a £20 stanley block plane and stanley saw at 40. (took a while but that's fine and they look great). I'm just now starting to move into the realms of building a workbench and a new oak front door and so on so bear with me. Many thanks, it's appreciated. Cheers.

 

[Trafalgar]

Flush with the back of the mouth is really as far back as you want to go with the frog. If the cutter won't fit with the frog positioned there then you are going to need to file the mouth -- the front, obviously, not the back.

 

[D_W]

I agree with charlie. At this point, you don't want to fiddle with anything further back than flush. If things are that tight, you'll probably want a little more room at the front, anyway. Life is just easier for all of the double iron planes if the frog is flush with the bottom casting.

 

[bridger]

I fitted a thick iron to a 5-1/2. I took most of the metal from the back of the mouth. I had to elongate the holes for the frog screws a bit and mind the angle at the edge, but it worked out fine. The front of the mouth got filed a bit to return it to square and address a small chip, but the metal removal was minor.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

It is a very simple process, just take your time as it is very easy to remove too much metal from the front of the mouth in your eagerness to get the job done. Been there done that. I would recommend you buy a new file for the job, as the one I had was old and required too much elbow grease which subsequently resulted in a lack of control. A new file is around a fiver so won't break the bank, just make sure and fit a handle or a scrap of wood to act as a handle.

I would echo the previous advice, scribe a line across the front of the mouth, no more than a mm, perhaps less even then keep checking until you have enough clearance for the size of shavings you require. Once you have the opening you require you can take a few minutes to ensure the mouth is perfectly square and smooth otherwise the chips may catch and clog the mouth. The metal is soft so not too much porridge before hand OK.

Good luck with it.

David

 

[Trafalgar]

Good point, the metal is removed in a hurry. Don't dare not mark where you want to finish.

 

[Bm101]

Update. Wait for it...
Back's much better and I'm back at work, I had a couple of hours free with the kids out yesterday so I got round to fiddling about with the 4 1/2 and a Record 5 I also picked up in Devon while on holiday.
I used the methods you all advised and drew the marking line. I had a little flat file and ground one side down smooth on my top of the range Aldi grinding wheel. He he. Worked like a charm though. I took my time and filed away checking with my combination square. No problems then and I hadn't taken much off either. Then I had that moment that makes you go. Waiiiit. I'd presumed that the new blade went bevel up because the old blade was bevel up. I think we all know what presumption is the mother of. I flipped it bevel down and lo and behold it fit the mouth. #-o

As a smoothing plane, what would you do? Leave it bevel down which I understand is a finer finish or carry on to give access to the choice of bevel up if needed?

Id always rather ask people that actually know and look a fool and learn, than be a fool forever.

On the plus side, the mouth is not over-opened and fits nicely now with the bevel down. So nothing hurt but my pride.

Also I tested out the record 5 that i got for £12. Looks like a school/college one maybe because the blade was all over the shop but the plane itself looks pretty unused apart from some green marking paint. Was on holiday near Axminster so I took it in there and they had a free sharpening week on. Result! Without honing it it was cutting beautifully long shavings evenly. Another result!

Thanks again for any help and advice. Its appreciated as I find my feet with this type of woodworking.
Regards.

 

[Trafalgar]

Yikes.

You're going to want to use the plane in a bevel down configuration.

 

[bridger]

It has a chipbreaker, right? Bevel down only.

 

[Bm101]

I can feel you wince from here.... Now I've seen the light its blinding lol.
No harm done and a good lesson learned. Thanks. Next time I'll keep the computer away from tool sites while drinking sloe gin. It's all finished now anyway, and was out at the weekend picking more, so I've got a few more years for it to age before I repeat that mistake.
moment of madness: over.
Many thanks.