Exterior house doors - possible for a novice to make ?

[EdK]

Hello everyone
I am new here.... so go easy.

I'm renovating a small house/cottage and have been mostly elbow deep in masonry and mortar for the last while.

Now I am getting to the wood stages and really enjoying it.

I've been making a few other objects from wood (carved GP kayak paddle etc)

What I'd like to ask is this :

How hard is it to make wooden doors ?

I've been quoted about 700 quid for a front door in uPVC.
I think that these doors look a bit nasty and would like a wooden door.

The house is about 1890 and small.

I was thinking of getting a quote from a joiners but they all seem to be too busy. So then I thought maybe I could give it a go myself. I have good attention to detail etc but have no experience of joinery.

Any advice ? Would this be something you would recommend a novice ?

I was going to go for a plank/braced style door possibly with a small glass panel top centre - possibly from oak. I have no idea how oak works / whether this would stand up to the damp/wet conditions (I live by the sea) and the costs involved. I dont mind about the time.

Thanks if you can help advise me.

(I have a front door with a rectangular fan light - a side door which is a bit wider than normal, and a pair of french doors to make)

Cheers
Ed

 

[wrightclan]

Welcome to the forum, Ed.

I think it would be a bit difficult for a novice, if only because plans for doors/frames are a bit hard to come by. As you say though, you have good attention to detail. If you look carefully at a good door and basically copy it, then you might do well. What kind of tools do you have?

Brad

 

[Scrit]

Hi Ed and welcome to the forum

I suppose making a front door yourself depends upon how much you can do yourself and how much you'll need to get others to do for you.

To make a door from scratch requires the ability to rip and crosscut relatively heavy timbers (2in thick oak). After ripping and crosscutting to approximate size the timbers will need to be planed (jointed), edged and thicknessed before any joints can be cut. Now whilst you can do all the above by hand, I don't know what, if any, machinery you have and if you can't handle this by using machinery I'd suggest supplying the timber merchant with a cutting list and getting him to do this initial cutting and sizing for you if you have any qualms about doing this.

A braced and planked door has relatively simple joints which can be cut by hand, whilst the tongue and groove of the planking is easily worked with a router or if you feel up to it with a combination plane, although with the router is easier probably easier to make a better job of it. So I think that the ledhged and braced doors may well be achievable

French windows are a bit more complex and will require the ability to make scribed mortise and tenon joints and mitre joints. Have you ever made anything with these types of joints? A French window may, unfortunately, prove very frustrating to try and make without the right sorts of tools and equipment

If you haven't already spent much on joinery tools, you might find this is where you will

As to plane, well as Brad says there aren't any, however the basic principles are covered in Brian Porter's excellent City & Guilds handbooks, "Carpentry & Joinery" vol 1 to vol 3 (Butterworth and Heinemann)

Scrit

 

[EdK]

Thanks Scrit and Brad
Brad - I was planning on drawing my own plans - I have had to learn how to draw over the last year. Have drawn the house plans and also ended up drawing the timber roof plans when the roofers got bored
Have been looking at a book on building doors from the library - one from the USA so slightly different approach but it runs through the making of a ledge and brace door.
As for tools... I reckon the basics I'd need would be:
tenon saw
forstner bits
table router
block plane.... erm erm
Yeah ... maybe I need to think about it more - no idea where to start !

A mate has a fully equipped workshop with bandsaw / table saw / router table / thicknesser etc.

I've made things there before but confess that I am starting on the woodwork path. I am buying tools slowly and own just a few rasps, rifflers cabinet scrapers and carving tools - nothing appropriate for the meat of the work.

I think I'd be happier getting the wood from the yard and then ripping it etc at his workshop though - locally the cut timber I have got is always on the 'angle'.

Scrit - yes, I haven't spent any time with the tools you mention - just limited time with a router table. I've never made a mortise & tenon.

The house is now roofed but is essentially empty inside - the wood work projects I will need to do include exterior doors - studwork - stairs (straight run) - kitchen - interior doors.

I was thinking about attempting all of these and buying the nesessary tools. So far I thought:
++ router and table
++ slide mitre saw
(get any panels ripped at the yard or at my mates workshop)... not sure about the rest.

I have plenty of time to learn and am keen but no experience of joinery. So in at the deep end as getting things made here is a nightmare - several joiners have told me 'no' - not even a time when they would be free just 'no' - too busy forever !

I guess I'll have to have a long hard think about the doors/stairs/kitchen and be brutally honest about my potential skill level.

I guess the tools for these three jobs (doors - stairs - kitchen) will cost me about a grand. Any idea on the cost of wood for a door ?! i know this is a 'how the heel can I answer that question' but generally how much wood would you expect to use in the following doors : (rough opening dimensions)

940mm by 1950mm
1020mm by 2000mm

Would you be looking at material costs of about £250 or so per door if made from oak ?

So far I've done everything on the house and have slightly regretted having to get professionals in for the roof timbers and slating (getting into winter - slightly less attention to detail than I would have liked and money is always the bottom line - and I would have like to have learnt the skills). I've done the plans/foundations/blocking (the cottage has an extension at the back : http://www.parazz.com/photos/65630573280_10337.jpg // http://www.parazz.com/photos/88275313675_10337.jpg) RSJ's and timber floors - never done it before so think I can learn new things.

So if I do manage to find a joiner who is available what should I look for in an exterior door ?

Is oak suitable ? Are there any better woods that move less and are better suited to a damp marine environment (I live in Guernsey). I really want to avoid plastic - or am I better off getting a £700 uPVC door ?

What would you expect to pay for a simple hardwood exterior door in the UK mainland ?

Should the joiner also fit the frame in the house and fit the door ? Is this usually included in the price - ie supply and fit ? I read on another thread (this is a big forum - I am so glad I found it but am wading through) that it is normally between £100 to £200 to fit an exterior door.

Construction method - should the doors be mortise and tenon and should I avoid a joiner who suggests biscuit joints (this is more for the french doors)

I feel like I am at square one with wood - it's taken me a year or so to sor the outside out and now I need a bit o' advice - sorry for all the rambling questions - cheers Ed[/url]

 

[Shultzy]

As you can see from scrit's post there are a lot of serious thinking to be done. When I started I bought a book on practical woodworking, which I read several times from cover to cover. I then started to make the various joints in scrap wood until I was confident I understood the concepts. I then made small pieces by putting a combination of joints together. Only by making the joints yourself will you begin to understand what skills and machinery you need.
Welcome to the forum and I hope this helps.

 

[johnnyb]

from the overall gist of your questions etc i would suggest that you dont try and make the door esp not from oak. not being negative and with the right tools it is not a difficult job its just that you should cut your teeth on something less work shoppy. working oak in large sections with flimsy tools can be a nightmare. start with interior room joinery, skirtings architrave, etc etc then an interior door. many joiners would buy the door and frame and just fit it anyway. maybe make the doorframe, fit it and have the door made.

 

[engineer one]

i would look a little more carefully at buying, and maybe fitting yourself.

i know of a supplier in amersham bucks who imports hardwood doors from indonesia, and they are below 500 quid, ask him for the same in softwood, which he has to get in the uk, because you want to paint it, and do not like painting hardwood, and he quotes over 700 quid. maybe he could quote you for an external door, there are other suppliers who do this. maybe then you could fit it yourself.

like others i would suggest making a cabinet or bookshelf first, with doors, then progress to other things. gain confidence.

paul :wink:

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Ed

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil

 

[woodbloke]

Welcome to the forum - Rob

 

[Scrit]

Hi again Ed

From what you have told us I'd give the French windows a miss, but I'd definitely consider the ledged and braced doors and the stairs. Ledged and braced doors are fairly simple to make and apart from the need to plave, thickness and crosscut the components the other thing you'll need is something like a decent size router (i.e. a 1/2in plunger), some bits and a simple (home-made) router table. Everything else can be done with hand/hand-power tools

Similarly stairmaking isn't so complex providing it's a straight run and a closed riser. If it's a winder or an open riser I'd probably avoid it as a first project and buy-in. Porter deals with this in his books and it is possible to make your own jig to rout the stringers. Stringers are best bought-in ready planed and sized - a 14 ft long stringer is not something you can put through even the largest DIY thicknesser. Even the trades tend to buy -in (at least in sotwood they do). The most challenging thing there is that you're going to need a lot of heavy cramps - T-bars or heavy pipe cramps - to assemble a staircase. Assembly is also pretty much a 2-man job as well, so you'll need a helper

I'd advise against attempting the French windows until you've goy a few projects under yout belt. You need to be confident enough to do good quality mortise and tenon joints and you'll need the equipment to make good tight mitre joints amd cut scribed M&Ts which I don't see as a beginners task. If you intend to have ftame and panel interior doors then thge same will apply - large M&Ts are a must and really require a spindle moulder to execute without struggling

Your kitchen? Well by all means make your own doors, but I'd suggest buying-in the carcasses from someone like Wickes or B&Q. They can be an aawful lot of work and aren't really tha satisfying, especially as you'll have to be able to overcome chipping-out and edgebanding with the MFC normally used in their construction.

I guess the tools for these three jobs (doors - stairs - kitchen) will cost me about a grand. Any idea on the cost of wood for a door ?!

Without knowing the specifics of the design and the price you pay locally, no. This is where you need to draw-up the door, prepare a cut list then calculate the cubic volume, allowing for the fact that rough sawn timber comes in standard thicknesses (so a finished 44mm thickness will start as 50mm/2in sawn) and the fact that you'll get 30% wastage. I'd expect something like a ledged and braced door to come in around 3.5 to 5 cu ft, but I could be out there as it depends on the design, etc.

Is oak suitable ? Are there any better woods that move less and are better suited to a damp marine environment (I live in Guernsey). I really want to avoid plastic - or am I better off getting a £700 uPVC door ?

PVCu has a lifetime of 40 to 60 years I'm told, less in a salt spray environment, so a properly maintained wooden door should last as long, if not longer. There's been a thread on here quite recently about the durability of timbers for doors, etc. and oak isn't necessarily the best timber for the job - if painted Canadian yellow pine seems to be a s durable, ifg not more so, costs less and is easier to work to boot.

Should the joiner also fit the frame in the house and fit the door ? Is this usually included in the price - ie supply and fit ? I read on another thread (this is a big forum - I am so glad I found it but am wading through) that it is normally between £100 to £200 to fit an exterior door.

Always try to make a door and frame or door and casing as a set and install that way. Makes for less hassle. The price to hand a door depends very much on where you are. No jobbing joiner will readily come out to you and do a 3 to 4 hour install then spend the rest of his day doing nothing, so you may need to be prepared to pay for a day of the man's time - but then get other jobs done at the same time. Only do pre-warn him of what is required. There's nothing worse than arriving at a job and being asked "blind" to do something for which youy aren't carrying the necessary gear.

Construction method - should the doors be mortise and tenon and should I avoid a joiner who suggests biscuit joints (this is more for the french doors)

Biscuits? The man's not a joiner! Ledged and braced use neither M&Ts (or biscuits)...... But anyone suggesting biscuits for exterior joinery is a complete pudding..... Avoid like the proverbials

Scrit

 

[Adam]

from the overall gist of your questions etc i would suggest that you dont try and make the door esp not from oak.

Funny, I thought exactly the opposite. To me, Ed sounds like hes reasonably handy, and plank and braced doors are reasonably easy. Sounds like he has access to a mate who has a good enough workshop, and anybody with that level of equipment will surely help his mate out if he gets stuck. Th hardness of oak makes it in some ways "easier" than softwood - it doesn't dent as much etc.

Just make sure you don't use any regular steel fittings - they react and cause black staining. Only use either good quality stainless steel fittings or brass.

Adam

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all the tips.
Since posting the original question I have taken a step back and chilled

I've rung round and found a joiner I didn't know existed over here on the island - hopefully he'll be round to have a look soon.

I have decided to not make the french doors.
I'll have another look at the brochures from the building yard over here - last time I looked none fitted (french doors are something like 1500mm x 2000mm - 2160mm is the current unscreeded height).

Also I'll get a price on the french doors from this joiner.

The side door in the new extension...
I'll get a price from the joiner as this is a bit wider than usual (1050mm x 2000mm) and I'm not sure if a L&B door made by me will be strong enough. It might be better as a framed L&B - which means good M&T's - which are possibly beyond me at the moment.

As for the front door...
It is currently a rather 70's aluminium door with similar fan light.
I'm keen to get rid of this but will leave it for the moment I think.

I'll try easier projects with an aim to working up to a good solid front door in a few or 6 month's time.

I got the price of raw lumber from the yard today.

THere were two lists. One was called EX-stock pile and had prices in thousands for a cubic metre. I was confused by this but suspect the answer may be in the Porter book which I am off to get from the library in a moment.

The other list was for sawn timber. All seemed reasonable price wise - ranged from 25 x something to 100 x something.

I realised that I have made a joint before - no idea if it was a M&T as the end is open (it was for a laminated teak speargun I made - very unpopular with the local bass population )... might post pics of the speargun and a paddle I have made on the project page ... got to start somewhere.

This month I have finished reading the Lonnie Bird book on period furniture building ('Period Furniture Details' Taunton press) - very interesting.

I'll read more about L&B doors with a view to make my front door in a few month's time. Any ideas on timber dimensions for the planking? 44mm seems to crop up in a few books ?

I can get my hands on the following from the yard locally :

European oak / American oak / ash / beech / maple / etc Any recommendations on wood ?

Thanks for your help. Ed

 

[gidon]

Ed
I made a front door a short time ago from American White Oak. Pics here:
http://www.tregarras.com/photos/v/woodw ... ront_door/
It's not technically that difficult but you do need space. You could always buy the wood already planed and roughly dimensioned.
Oak is a pretty good choice - especially if the door will experience the elements. The American stuff is cheaper but prolly doesn't look quite as nice. Mine cost about £100 in wood.
Feel free to come back with questions. There's a few threads in this group on my progress on the door too if you search.
All the best
Gidon

 

[Colin C]

Gideon

How much did you pay for the Aquamac weather seal and cutter as I am doing a back door for my house ( needs to be finished soon :roll: ) and would like to fit some.

Thanks Colin

 

[gidon]

Ed - found the link on my completed door:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9223

Colin - found the link on the weather seal:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8247

I'd forgotten the details - so the cutter was around £17 and IIRC the weather seal stuff was around £10 for enough for a front door (with some spare). It is brilliant stuff.

I think this is where I got it from - and I think they do mail order:
http://www.westwardbuildingservices.com/

The tricky bit is getting the cutter in the door frame. Of course if you're fitting the frame as well then make sure you cut the groove first.

Cheers

Gidon

 

[Colin C]

Thanks Gideon

As I will be doing a half door ( to go with the one I am making ) in the summer but I will have to make new frame and cut a bigger hole in the wall

 

[Scrit]

Hi Ed

I got the price of raw lumber from the yard today.

There were two lists. One was called EX-stock pile and had prices in thousands for a cubic metre. I was confused by this but suspect the answer may be in the Porter book which I am off to get from the library in a moment.

The other list was for sawn timber. All seemed reasonable price wise - ranged from 25 x something to 100 x something.

Us "old dodderers" tend to think in timber priced in cubic feet, so 1in oak at £28/cubic foot sounds easier to swallow than 25mm oak at £989/cubic metre (the factor is about x35). Living on a small island I have no doubt that everything will cost a lot more than here on mainland Britain, though.

I can get my hands on the following from the yard locally :

European oak / American oak / ash / beech / maple / etc Any recommendations on wood ?

Beech, ash and maple are unsuitable for exterior use - they all tend to degrade too quickly. Oak is good, but if you are buying American oak make sure it is white oak rather than red oak (there are two varieties) - the red stuff isn't suitable for exterior use, either.

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

sounds like we have offered some good advice :lol:

as for the french doors, seems that the sizes you have been offered will work ok once you have framed them out.

paul :wink: