Dovetails fretsaw

[Hornbeam]

I stopped using a coping saw when I realised that sawing is too slow.

You need to practice more Jacob
With a moderate fretsaw blade you can cut almost on the line and then just a simple pare to finish

 

[Jacob]

You need to practice more Jacob
With a moderate fretsaw blade you can cut almost on the line and then just a simple pare to finish

Do them flat on the bench with 2 chisel chops - second one dead on the line and slightly undercut.
Turn it over and ditto.
No paring.
Needs a good knife line for the shoulder and the DT saw lines need to to touch it so there's no cleaning out of the corners. Common to find them cut well over the line, because it's quicker.
Much faster than fiddling about with fret saw!

 

[SVB]

I while ago I treated myself to one of the knew concept saws - really amazing saw so if you wanted to get yourself a ‘happy new year’ present then id recommend them.
simon

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The drawback from my pov using them more on metal is they don't take broken blades. I might be tempted by the knock off one though.

I use fretsaw blades in a jeweller's saw frame for cutting mouldings on skirtings etc. - it takes a minute or so longer but saves more than that on the time wasted filling poorly fitting copes/scribes.

 

[Michael_b]

Do them flat on the bench with 2 chisel chops - second one dead on the line and slightly undercut.
Turn it over and ditto.
No paring.
Needs a good knife line for the shoulder and the DT saw lines need to to touch it so there's no cleaning out of the corners. Common to find them cut well over the line, because it's quicker.
Much faster than fiddling about with fret saw!

Accurate dovetailing with two chops per side, no paring? There must be details to your technique that have been excluded here--for example, are you making a large number of cuts through the waste with your dovetail saw so that there's very little waste left to remove? What are the details of your technique?

Fiddling about with the fretsaw? How about grabbing the fretsaw, tightening the tensioning screw, and just sawing? I don't see that as "fiddling about" but perhaps I'm missing something.

When I use a fretsaw to cut out the waste, I use coarse/fast blades (Olson PGT 8 TPI skip reverse tooth) and go just a little shy of the baseline, making for a fast fret saw cut and easy/fast paring or chopping of the remaining waste. A quick example in pine is shown in the attached images. An expensive fretsaw is not necessary for what I consider to be a reasonable level of accuracy. The only fretsaw with which I have experience is pictured here and therefore I cannot comment on the comparison to any other options out there.

The single fretsaw cut shown here took about as much time as each of the dovetail saw cuts. Seems reasonably fast to me.

 

[Ollie78]

I agree with Jacob I have a fancy jewellers saw (uses scroll saw blades) which does cut fantastically well but I don`t find it quicker or more accurate than just chiselling. I would say "two chops" is a bit of an exageration, of course if its really thin maybe, I reckon more like 6 to 8.

You are doubling up a process when sawing the waste out, you will have to pare the corners and chisel to the line anyway.

Ollie

 

[Jacob]

Accurate dovetailing with two chops per side, no paring? There must be details to your technique that have been excluded here--for example, are you making a large number of cuts through the waste with your dovetail saw so that there's very little waste left to remove? What are the details of your technique?

Fiddling about with the fretsaw? How about grabbing the fretsaw, tightening the tensioning screw, and just sawing? I don't see that as "fiddling about" but perhaps I'm missing something.

When I use a fretsaw to cut out the waste, I use coarse/fast blades (Olson PGT 8 TPI skip reverse tooth) and go just a little shy of the baseline, making for a fast fret saw cut and easy/fast paring or chopping of the remaining waste. A quick example in pine is shown in the attached images. An expensive fretsaw is not necessary for what I consider to be a reasonable level of accuracy. The only fretsaw with which I have experience is pictured here and therefore I cannot comment on the comparison to any other options out there.

The single fretsaw cut shown here took about as much time as each of the dovetail saw cuts. Seems reasonably fast to me.

Yes but I was thinking of realtime DTs not just one huge one in a bit of scrap!
If you make a trad chest of drawers you could have 100 or more to do.

 

[Michael_b]

I agree with Jacob I have a fancy jewellers saw (uses scroll saw blades) which does cut fantastically well but I don`t find it quicker or more accurate than just chiselling. I would say "two chops" is a bit of an exageration, of course if its really thin maybe I reckon more like 6 to 8.

You are doubling up a process when sawing the waste out, you will have to pare the corners and chisel to the line anyway.

Ollie

No paring of the corners; if you look closely at the photos you should see that I have cut to the baseline with the dovetail saw, front and back, left and right. With a sharp chisel, it is about 2-4 paring or chopping cuts per side after the sawing shown.

I generally prefer to chisel the waste rather than saw it out--but just trying to make a point here.

6 to 8 chops in thin stock sounds quite reasonable. Two chops per side on even 3/4 inch (19mm) stock does not sound reasonable unless perhaps there's more to the story.

 

[Michael_b]

Yes but I was thinking of realtime DTs not just one huge one in a bit of scrap!
If you make a trad chest of drawers you could have 100 or more to do.

Make 100 dovetails instead of one and you've multiplied the time difference by 100: no change whatsoever to the point or illustration thereof. You've completely dodged the questions and instead put up a strawman that has nothing whatsoever to do with the comparison in time per dovetail.

I'll ask again: what are the details of your technique that allows you to proceed with only 2 chops per side for accurate dovetails? Please teach me something instead of failing to refute my point.

 

[Jacob]

...

6 to 8 chops in thin stock sounds quite reasonable. Two chops per side on even 3/4 inch (19mm) stock does not sound reasonable unless perhaps there's more to the story.

I was thinking of little drawer pin holes (so called 'London Pattern'). Not the thickness but more the width. Yes other side takes more though a bigger chisel will help.
The main thing about all chisel is that you lay your boards flat for one side and just turn it for the other. No process of putting it in the vice and fret sawing. You can't fret saw anyway if you are cutting blind DT sockets.

 

[Michael_b]

I was thinking of little drawer pin holes (so called 'London Pattern'). Not the thickness but more the width. Yes other side takes more though a bigger chisel will help.
The main thing about all chisel is that you lay your boards flat for one side and just turn it for the other. No process of putting it in the vice and fret sawing. You can't fret saw anyway if you are cutting blind DT sockets.

Full blind, you're correct that fretsaws are not an option; half blind, the fret saw can be used for one side if desired.

Sounds like you were only referring to a very specific case in which the pins are quite small and the cosmetic characteristics are unimportant. It would have been helpful to say so.

Putting a board in the vise/vice takes a couple of seconds: spin the handle one way, insert the board, spin the handle the other way, and done. Still quick.

I remain convinced that skill--not necessarily technique--is the main factor in speed. If you can convince me otherwise, I am always grateful to learn more. Again, please teach me.

 

[Jacob]

.....Still quick.

I remain convinced that skill--not necessarily technique--is the main factor in speed. If you can convince me otherwise, I am always grateful to learn more. Again, please teach me.

I'm not bothered about convincing you at all!
Maybe you just need more practice with chiselling. It does take some thought to get a technique turning into a skill.

 

[Michael_b]

I'm not bothered about convincing you at all!
Maybe you just need more practice with chiselling. It does take some thought to get a technique turning into a skill.

Again, how about you answer the question: what are the details of your technique that allow you to use just two chops per side? Can you actually answer questions, or are you only interested in putting up strawmen that are at best tangentially related to the question that has been presented? I've shown with photos my level of skill with quick-for-illustration fretsawing. What do you have?

 

[Jacob]

Again, how about you answer the question: what are the details of your technique that allow you to use just two chops per side? Can you actually answer questions, or are you only interested in putting up strawmen that are at best tangentially related to the question that has been presented? I've shown with photos my level of skill with quick-for-illustration fretsawing. What do you have?

I did an exercise some time back, for my own information. I've done lots of DTs over the years but thought I'd do DT heavy exercise to improve my skill levels.
It's a bit rambling and boring - I keep meaning to do a more concise version!

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/chest-of-drawers-wip.116324/

 

[Michael_b]

Again, how about you answer the question: what are the details of your technique that allow you to use just two chops per side? Can you actually answer questions, or are you only interested in putting up strawmen that are at best tangentially related to the question that has been presented? I've shown with photos my level of skill with quick-for-illustration fretsawing. What do you have?

To put it another way,

 

[thetyreman]

the problem with just chopping it out with a chisel is you move the knifewall back and can create gaps, I find it faster to use the coping saw then chop away to the line very carefully so the line does not move back, start with light hits with the hammer then once a few mm in you can hit harder.

 

[Jacob]

the problem with just chopping it out with a chisel is you move the knifewall back and can create gaps,...

You make the last cut a fine one in the knife line but tilted to undercut so it doesn't press back into the line. I looked at a lot of old dovetails and they very often have a clear undercut on the shoulder, cut from each side. If you do that and also always overcut the sawn line it completely eliminates paring, trimming, fine adjusting. The idea is speed - no corrections or fine adjustment necessary - they'll all fit first time, barring completely random errors.

 

[Michael_b]

I did an exercise some time back, for my own information. I've done lots of DTs over the years but thought I'd do DT heavy exercise to improve my skill levels.
It's a bit rambling and boring - I keep meaning to do a more concise version!

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/chest-of-drawers-wip.116324/

I see no evidence whatsoever to support the claim of, "2 chisel chops - second one dead on the line and slightly undercut. Turn it over and ditto."

Try again.

 

[Jacob]

I see no evidence whatsoever to support the claim of, "2 chisel chops - second one dead on the line and slightly undercut. Turn it over and ditto."

Try again.

Yes well don't worry about it. It's not a competition.
I'd write it up differently if I repeated the exercise - several little improvements. Best of all was the "beam" hold-down which I've used a lot since, with variations. It can hold down all your drawer sides, or the cabinet 4 sides, at once and you can chisel them all without changing their position until you have to turn them all to do the other side.

 

[Michael_b]

Yes well don't worry about it. It's not a competition.

Ah, still can't answer any questions or back up any claims. Good luck with your "superior skill." I'll stop engaging with you and learn from people who actually have something to teach me. I have a great deal to learn, but clearly not from you.