Door Gluing Chaos

[bohngy]

Hey Y’all,

I recently had a hellish experience, gluing a large exterior door together. So I thought I would as for some advice, for the future!

The door in question had 2 large (215mm) rails and a couple of mullions, giving a total of 14 (75mm wide) loose tenons, each cut with multiple passes of a Domino 700. The dry fit was fine, but when the glue was on, I had a terrible job getting the door together. I managed to wind the joints together, under great pressure, with a pair of HUMONGOUS sash cramps, but this made the process of squaring it almost impossible.

The loose tenon approach is new to me, but I’m not keen to try it again without a different approach. Could anyone offer any pearls of advice?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Using PVA?

 

[dzj]

Try gluing in phases. For instance, glue the LTs in all the rails first.
It's easier to control a process if you decrease the amount of variables.

 

[Beau]

Use a PU glue with long open time. Not only does it not grab like PVA but just tends to lubricate joints better than other glues IME

 

[custard]

This is the classic Domino problem. Take comfort in the fact that it's a like a right of passage for Domino users, and now that you've experienced it you'll never do it again!

I'm convinced that some adhesives, including PVA, are pressure sensitive. Any glue with a water content will cause the Domino to swell, so something that went together just fine during the dry glue up is now a nightmare.

There are three possible solutions. Gluing up in multiple smaller stages. Using a glue with zero water content. Using a glue with a very long open time.

Personally I tend to use a UF glue (such as Cascamite) for nearly all my Domino work. It does contain water, but it gives an open time of at least 15 or 20 minutes even in really hot weather. With PVA I would never attempt to glue up 14 joints in one hit under any circumstances, there just isn't time with PVA's super short open time to do all the small adjustments to the sash cramps that are needed to guarantee a dead square result.

 

[Jacob]

Basically after a successful dry run you have to have it all set up perfectly with everything lined up and to hand. Then splash on lashings of glue with a brush as fast as poss and cramp as fast as poss. Easier if you have someone to help to turn it over etc.
There may be a halfway stage where you can get just the ends of some tenons into mortices and everything holding together, which helps before you splash on the glue.
PVA should give you just enough time but it has to go right first time as it can be irreversible as the wood expands before the glue has gone off.

 

[bohngy]

Thanks so much for all your replies. I don’t often do large jobs like this - this was also my first foray with the Domino.

I realised my main mistake, using PVA, about 1/3 way through the glue up, but thought that I would have enough open time to manage... I’ve since revised that misconception and ordered some cascamite this morning.

I considered gluing one half of the floating tenons in place first, but was concerned about alignment issues. I think I’ll make another door next week and incorporate the suggestions above. I’ll update with a jubilant message of door making success. Oh, and the last door has turned out fine, but rather too stressful for my liking!

Thanks again

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks so much for all your replies. I don’t often do large jobs like this - this was also my first foray with the Domino.

I realised my main mistake, using PVA, about 1/3 way through the glue up, but thought that I would have enough open time to manage... I’ve since revised that misconception and ordered some cascamite this morning.

I considered gluing one half of the floating tenons in place first, but was concerned about alignment issues. I think I’ll make another door next week and incorporate the suggestions above. I’ll update with a jubilant message of door making success. Oh, and the last door has turned out fine, but rather too stressful for my liking!

I'm working up to this problem at the moment (my first foray into dominoes, too). I'd twigged there was an issue, from experience biscuiting and other M+T glue-ups, but I hadn't realised that dominos are as dry-shrunk as they seem to be (as supplied). It's frustrating, as generally I really like using PVA!

If you have a sec, please post a pic of the door in question, as it would be good to compare it with the design I'm working with.

Thanks for posting! I found it very helpful.

E.

 

[MikeG.]

Anyone who thinks that woodworking is always a gentle stress-free pastime has never done a large glue-up. There's sometimes a moment in the process when you have to consider knocking it all apart and cleaning up, to come back to it later.

 

[MattRoberts]

You can also glue one side of the dominos in and let it dry before then attaching the other pieces. Just be sure to avoid squeeze out from the domino holes. You also don't need much glue on a domino to make a rock solid connection, so you don't need to flood the hole

 

[ColeyS1]

Sounds like proper wedged through tenons would have been a better choice [WINKING FACE]

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Get a garden spray and wet the components first - it'll give you an extra few minutes.

 

[custard]

Get a garden spray and wet the components first - it'll give you an extra few minutes.

And make the Dominos swell even more.

 

[AndyT]

Just wondering... I've read instructions in old books for gluing up doors using conventional mortice and tenon joints. It said to dry assemble, with the tenons inserted about a third of their length. Then brush on glue to the exposed parts of the tenons, knock the joints together and hammer in the wedges, checking for square.
I wonder if this could still work with dominoes?
The obvious advantage is that the alignment challenge is all done dry.
From what people have said, you don't need lots of glue all over the dominoes. Has anyone tried this?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Get a garden spray and wet the components first - it'll give you an extra few minutes.

And make the Dominos swell even more.

Yes, sorry, I wasn't thinking of Dominos.

 

[bohngy]

Sounds like proper wedged through tenons would have been a better choice [WINKING FACE]

I think you’ve got a point there, Coley. I’m yet to be a Domino convert.

 

[Doug71]

I had a similar problem a couple of weeks ago. I was gluing up an oak bookcase with mitred corners containing dominos, the dry fit was fine but once glued it was a different story. Running round panicking trying bigger and bigger cramps. In the end I knocked it apart, cleaned it up and re cut the domino mortises with a bit more wiggle room. It was my own fault, I was worried about the joint failing so put too much glue on.

I thought I was once told by a Festool rep that dominos were not compressed like biscuits so they shouldn't swell like biscuits do or is it just because they are absorbing moisture that they swell?

I am guessing that the original poster was not using dominos but homemade loose tenons because he says they were 75mm wide.

 

[mbartlett99]

Don't know if this will help but when I'm doing a large cabinet where multiple components need to line up I;
1) Always glue one end in first and leave it to dry off
2) Wherever possible just use a few on the tight setting for alignment and rest with a wider cut to allow a bit of wiggle room.
3) Have the big rubber mallet handy

Started also taking a block plane to the edges - there's a little ridge there which sometimes shaves off, gets trapped and holds the joint open a touch.

Its still a pain though. Good luck!

 

[johnnyb]

Try titebond 3. Nice slow set strong and waterproof. Stains though so avoid squeeze out if staining. I've found the 500 cuts tight..real tight. But the 700 looser may be just mine though.
For instance if I'm glueing felloes to make a curve i have to push them close as fast as possible otherwise they go stiff after 10secs. After that i bring them closer with a joiners dog but that only works if there within a mil or less to start.

 

[Mr T]

Not had this probelm myself but a light sanding of the dominos before glue up may help.

Chris