Domino jointer instead of morticer and tenoner?

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Phil Sewell

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This is a question mainly for professional kitchen/wardrobe makers. Have you gone over to using a domino jointer for face frames and doors. I have a mortiser and a tenoner so have always used those but a friend of mine who makes mainly kitchens and wardrobes joints everything with a domino jointer. He is stacked out with work and subbing some out to me. He's keen I get a domino jointer as he thinks it will cut down on time. So, is that the modern way people are jointing doors and frames?

If I did purchase one it would be the cheaper model as any bigger m and t can be done with existing kit (plus I'd struggle to justify the more expensive version)

You are limited to 25mm depth for the mortice I believe with the 500 model. That doesn't really seem deep enough on stiles of any depth (60mm plus).

I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Thanks

Phil.
 
You could double them up if you're worried, takes very little time. What sort of dimensions of timber are you talking because you'd be looking at a pretty thick cupboard door to be using a 10 x 50 domino in it, unless I'm misreading something.
 
Hello Phil, I use both Domino machines, the 500 and the 700, but I certainly wouldn't be without a morticing machine. And if I could only have one I'd stick with the morticer.

Where the Dominos really score is when you've designed your furniture from the ground up around Domino tenon sizes, and when the quality and precision of your other machinery is sufficiently high that you can guarantee absolutely square and accurate components. Tick both of those boxes and Domino construction can clip hours off your build times.

However, I still find plenty of situations where Dominos are either very much a second best or just won't work at all. Here are a few examples,

-Dominos offer very little flexibility in terms of mortice width. There are plenty of depth options and plenty of thickness options, but for width it's basically 13mm plus the diameter of the drill bit...and that's it! Sure, there are workarounds involving making up your own loose tenons and drilling overlapping mortices, but that's a lot of faff which largely removes the productivity benefit which was the main reason you got a Domino in the first place! So if your components work well with a 21mm wide x 8mm thick tenon then terrific, but if you absolutely need a 50mm wide rail and a 35mm wide tenon for example, then there are better and stronger solutions than a Domino.

-Dominos can't cut haunches. Maybe that's a problem, maybe it isn't, depends on what you make. Personally I make plenty of occasional tables and console tables where I'm trying to get the leg cross section as small as possible, often around 30mm. A strong and secure mortice and tenon in a leg like that needs the additional glue surface that a haunch will provide. Indeed sometimes I've pushed the design even further and need "interleaved" and off set tenons, again I'd really struggle to achieve this kind of construction with a Domino. So if you're trying to push your furniture designs to stand apart from the High Street then you'll often be disappointed with the Domino's lack of flexibility, the perfect Domino item of furniture can sometimes end up looking a bit "samey", a bit mainstream.

-Obviously doesn't apply to you, but I've known a hobbyists get a Domino because they thought it would guarantee them accurate frames. Unfortunately they were working with indifferent table saws and planers, so that their components were often fractionally off from square, had traces of snipe, or weren't bang on accurate to length. The problem in these circumstances is that a Domino references 100% off the components, so if they're inaccurate then the whole job is inaccurate. Using traditional M&T's you get into the rhythm of scribing the joint to achieve perfection, and if you have anything less than a superb cross cut facility then there's still plenty to be said for that traditional method.

-If you make chairs or furniture with curved components it's easier to knock together a fixture that'll hold a curved piece in a morticer than it is to use a Domino.

Like I said, I've invested in both Domino machines and use them regularly, they're superb bits of kit. But the wider the range of furniture you make then the more likely that they won't be a silver bullet solution for all your jointing needs.

Good luck!
 
I would think a morticer and tenoner a difficult way to do face frames.

For face frames a domino would be much easier. I have a hoffman machine and use that for foing face frames. I used to dowel yhem which works well, but a domino is a possibly a quicker set up.

I expect you do kitchen and wardrobe doors with scribe and profile set, so no mortice as such? For shaker doors I tend to use 9mm mr mdf or 9mm veneered, so machine a 9.3mm groove with an expanding groover, then use a tenoner for the rails, 15mm long tenons.
 
Like Custard I have the 500 and the XL and they are both superb machines however I would say that the XL is the better engineered of the two. It is a more balanced and more capable machine especially if you kit it out with an RTS adapter from Seneca to run the 500 cutters.

If your looking for a device to cut time with batch production, it is certainly the tool for the job.

I agree that it dictates the design of the end product to some degree and it has it's drawbacks but then it never was meant to replace all joinery methods.
 
To be fair i dont have much involvement in fine furniture in my current job, and we dont own a morticer, we not only have the luxury off both dominoes machines but very accurate felder equipment.

its important to echo the point above about joining two bits of wood that are badly machined you will always end up with dodgy joints. but there fantastic machines we have made heavy oak doors with the xl just double up the tenons and its fine.

the mortise and tenon is an brilliant joint and if executed correctly will provide excellent strength, and a wedged through mortice can look very nice! they are a faff to make and require lots of careful measuring and chisel work. Our business is time = £££ so if i can push two pieces of wood together and draw one pencil line and 30 seconds later I have an great joint then the choice is obvious!

mortices where made for times when wood glues where poor and likely to fail, not something we suffer from today with a large range of excellent glues at our finger tips.

depending on what you do, and if you have the space or not I would definitely go for the domino. they are perfect for face frames especially if you have your timber prepared by the supplier.

adidat
 
If I understand correctly, you are questioning whether it would be prudent to purchase a Domino type machine,
based on the premise that your friend (who owns one) is "stacked out with work".
Joinery is just one of the operations that needs to be done in order to successfully complete a job.
Time-wise it takes up, maybe, 10% of this time.
So, if your friend, armed with a Domino, can do this twice as fast (and everything else being the same),
do you believe that this ~5% of time he has cut down is the reason that he is swamped with work?
If this is the case, then by all means, get the Domino.
As for loose tenon joinery, it has its place, but it is not a magic bullet.
Until someone reputable does a longitudinal study that proves me wrong, I shall refrain from using this method
when making doors of any kind.
 
What is there to think about? For kitchen and wardrobe carcasses, doors and face-frames, Domino, all day long. No, it isn't the magic bullet for all your joinery needs, but as others have said, it wasn't intended to be. Buy one, try it out and if you don't get along with it, return it within 14 days. Or keep it for the duration of the subbing work and sell it on if you don't think you'll make much use of it - bet you don't though ;)
 
My question would be what machine does your friend use, they must have a specific design or spec for the methods of construction used, which would make sense to adopt.

The good thing about the Domino machines is their portability for use on site, but will not replace workshop based options.
 
I agree with dzj.

Every purchase where this amount of money is involved must be based on a thorough analysis of gain versus cost.

There are workstages where a one man business can afford to spend a bit of extra time just because the modern method doesn't save enough time to earn back the investment.
 
I'd be fascinated to meet someone that can cut a mortise joint faster (and as accurately) as I can do with a domino using the bench to base reference method (i.e. you reference the domino off the bench rather than the piece, the piece must be clamped tight down though).
It takes literally seconds to cut each half of the joint (it takes longer to move the pieces of wood around) and because the loose tenons are already made to standardised sizes theres no time consumed in making the loose tenons.
As others have said, I would buy one, use it and 'IF' you don't want it then sell it on for basically what you paid for it. Festool tools hold their value very well for second hand re-sale.
 
For the price of a domino 500 you could buy a metal pantarouter with all of the templates. That would give you everything that the domino AND the domino XL can do, as well as Mortice and Tenon, finger joints, dovetails etc etc as well - and probably a little faster than a domino if you are doing bulk jobs - and linking to Custards point - you wouldn't be limited by the the fixed domino thicknesses.

If you really want a portable device, Stumpy Nubs has a build for a portable domino machine which looks pretty quick to make, and should come in under £150. That would be a cheap way of getting the equivilant of a domino XL sort of size.

I am *nearly* finished with my home build version of the Pantarouter XL - total spend will be £120-ish, but there is about 75 hours of work in it as well, so if I wasn't doing it fun, but professionally, it would make more sense to buy it.
 
SlowSteve":2h1cex7g said:
For the price of a domino 500 you could buy a metal pantarouter with all of the templates. That would give you everything that the domino AND the domino XL can do

Not quite, the benefit of the Domino is that you can take the work to the machine and conversely the machine to the work.

Yes they are expensive but good tools are and there is a reason for that. The value that can be extracted from a Domino is far greater than its purchase price when using it professionally. I don't know anyone who regretted their Domino purchase or indeed anyone who has used the Festool money back guarantee with them.
 
SlowSteve":2fpg15ff said:
For the price of a domino 500 you could buy a metal pantarouter with all of the templates. That would give you everything that the domino AND the domino XL can do, as well as Mortice and Tenon, finger joints, dovetails etc etc as well - and probably a little faster than a domino if you are doing bulk jobs - and linking to Custards point - you wouldn't be limited by the the fixed domino thicknesses.

If you really want a portable device, Stumpy Nubs has a build for a portable domino machine which looks pretty quick to make, and should come in under £150. That would be a cheap way of getting the equivilant of a domino XL sort of size.

I am *nearly* finished with my home build version of the Pantarouter XL - total spend will be £120-ish, but there is about 75 hours of work in it as well, so if I wasn't doing it fun, but professionally, it would make more sense to buy it.

75 hours work to save £500 does not make any commercial sense
I agree with most buy it or try it for yourself
For kitchens and wardrobes they are excellent. I would not use it to make a full sized internal door let alone external.
 
sorry the panto-router is totally different from the domino, its a cool idea but involves lots of messing around. the domino uses standardized cutters which match perfectly with there off the shelf dominoes, most of the time i dont clamp pieces down i just push them up against a bench dog or something.

sure its a pricey tool and the cutters (which seem to go on forever) are not cheap, it needs to be priced into the job, and very quickly the domino will have paid for its self.

p.s. its essential the domino is used with dust extraction to clear the mortise of debris that could possibly foul the cutter!

why is everyone so afraid of doors? two years in and the internal oak doors dont have a single gap or any visible drop??

adidat
 
A wedged M&T offers a mechanical fixing so if the glue fails the joint does not necessarily. A Domino only has the glue. I do not see the point in taking the risk.
 
adidat - I agree with you on the door front. I've made loads of doors, both internal and external as well as gates and even a set of full size up and over wooden garage doors for a double garage. I've yet to have one fail on me (and yes, I am in reasonably regular contact with 90% of the owners, the other 10% are my own) I own both machines and use them for loads of different jobs - the only thing I've yet to pluck up the courage for is a staircase.

Having said that a mate of mine has asked for a short straight flight (6 steps) to go in his workshop/office so he may be my guinea pig. I seriously doubt that they would fail catastrophically - very few things do in normal use. I'll keep a regular eye on them and see if they're squeaking or ave moved over time.

Thinking it through however, I wonder if the Domino would speed up staircase production significantly? It's not exactly a hugely time consuming job in the first place, so maybe not worth the effort.
 
A domino machine is simply a portable mortiser, you don't have to use dominos you can easily square up the mortise or round the corners of a tenon to produce a mortise & tenon joint.
I got rid of my mortiser after buying the 700, I've found nothing I can't do with the domino that I did with the mortiser I had.
 
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