Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
3 in 1 works fine, thinned with white spirit. Used to be called "Bicycle oil".
Diamond Sharpening stone
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3 in 1 works fine, thinned with white spirit. Used to be called "Bicycle oil".frogesque
Established Member
Mix and match. Oilstone (I actually use water and some wash up liquid, the foam helps clean the stone but oil tools after to prevent rust) for plane irons chisles etc and diamond plates for cobalt steels, carbide or stone dressing. Each has a different feel and you need to learn the difference between a cutting stone or plate to ones that are clogged and glazed.
For a seriously sharp edge you can't beat an Arkansus Stone followed by a quick strop on the palm of your hand.
For a seriously sharp edge you can't beat an Arkansus Stone followed by a quick strop on the palm of your hand.
there needs to be additional disclosure about the flatness claim. When the stones are branded trend, the claim is that flatness per inch. when trend stones came out, some of the razor forums picked them up right away because of the flatness claims, but without notice that the overall flatness was far enough out in some to be a problem honing razors.
That's not an issue on this forum (razors), but it's possible to meet that spec and be out several thousandths of an inch through the length of a stone, and that will present problems flattening irons and chisels. The flatness tolerance ought to be given through the length of the entire hone.
Also, I realize it's not really a thing in the UK like it is here, but anyone asking over $50 equivalent for a diamond hone ought to be willing to provide the country of origin. On the razor forums, the members stated that trend were made in china.
Previous comments about the honing fluid stand - the CAS numbers of the distillate and naptha are published in the SDS.
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James Barry used to supply Trend with their old diamond stones made at a price, this relationship broke down a couple of years ago James now sells higher specification stones through a few independent dealers across the world, we are one of only a couple in the UK. If you follow Trends product range you will understand their business model has changed and they have found new suppliers with replacement products. James worked for DMT back in the day when the diamond manufactures used to claim diamond stones would last forever, not a claim I make, all abrasives wear down in time but well made diamond stones stay flatter than most other mediums IMO.
My feeling is if flatness is your aim then use Scary sharpening, if you want an easy sharpening system use diamonds. If you want to get in the zen zone use water stones. All the sharpening systems work they are just different, we supply these three systems so I don't have an axe to grind
Rob Cosman used to supply Trend, his new product discretion may give you more insight into our stones.
Cheers
Peter
Hi, Peter - I recognize some of the language in the ad copy (I realize you didn't write it) as starting as long back as DMT ("let the diamond do the work and use only light pressure".
it's not really necessary to do that, it's other materials other than hardened steel that will pull the diamonds free quickly, but I could be underestimating how much pressure some folks may apply.
What the pattern suggested to me is the stones you have and the stones sold under the same brand are coming from the same origin as trend, which ultimately is a chinese manufactured stone. People will ask varying prices for them. Cosman, who I don't follow but looked up the diamond hone, has an ask of $140 USD. i think that's in poor taste, but it's my opinion.
Changes in the distribution system put you in a tough spot - if you have a buyer who is selling to trend and then trend to you and you get to eat all of the customer service, it's not as if you're getting them for $16 from China (I find what is probably the same stone on alibaba), but rather you have to rely on someone who is going to deliver something that customers will accept.
There's no much difference between any of these stones. the narrative with trend and now titman stuff, and I apologize if you find it harsh, but it is my objective opinion - attempts to make the stones seem like they're differentiated from lower cost stones and attempts to create some difference in describing them vs. ezelap and DMT, which would've been important at one point. DMT and Ezelap don't have quality problems - they have a problem that three or four people can't get in line and get them to a buyer and then still have room for a retailer with returns. so they are bounced out in the return and coupon era.
I agree that laser flatness isn't practical in stones. razor users found stones delivered by the person you're mentioning either not meeting that expectation by spec or perhaps examples that didn't meet spec. But my comment also still stands, it's extremely unlikely that .0005" is a spec met over the length of the hones and to state a number that is for a fraction of the length of the stone is again, poor taste. But that's not on you, that's on the ad copy - you can't sit and write original language for everything you market.
rob's model is different than most - he had a captive market when he started (my interpretation) and could sell things to them to increase revenue when doing on-site tool classes at woodcrafts. I understand he has a large family, though perhaps most of his kids are grown now. A captive audience and an open market with full information is a different thing. After that, you can rely on reputation to sell, for example, a $16 two sided hone for $140, but it is a tax on beginners of sorts. We've all been there.
The business model has changed in general, not so much for woodworking retailers, but that there's not much risk for buyers to do something like buy the "DMD" or whatever other hone may be out there. I've been through a bunch of them and see them as consumable when there's a need to use them (steels not cut well by anything else, usually, or refurbishing something that is really high hardness). At this point, that distribution model (someone buys 500 off of alibaba, looks them over quickly and puts them on amazon for $20) is superior unless there is a great difference in product quality. The narrative is designed to imply there is.
There isn't.
And in the minority case where something comes from amazon and it may not be quite right, it can just be returned.
I took microscope pictures of a spent lower cost diamond hone last year to compare to pictures that someone else had of an old EZE-lap when they were polycrystalline or a combination of polycrystalline and monocrystalline, and all we could see is that the stones were arranged slightly more neatly. there are large diamonds initially that will come off of the stone. I would imagine that some are outside of the grading parameters (though this would be easy to work around by just making hones with diamond that's been graded for lapidary supply), but they are removed pretty quickly at the outset.
At this point, we are seeing shifting of the names on stones but they are the same thing as decades ago and in some case, not as good (the polycrystalline stones have been pretty much eliminated because monocrystalline diamonds are less expensive. there is probably still some trickle of information floating around that monocrystalline is better or implying that it's more expensive, but the new ezelap hones are not as good as the old ones).
So what am i saying? if someone is going to import a diamond hone from china (not you, the retailer, but the distributor or perhaps an industry professional who splits off), give us something new or different. it's not 30 years ago and nothing involved in the process is costly at this point. milled mild steel, electroplate and closely graded diamonds are all commodity items. The last time I checked on lapidary supply, 100 carats of 0.5 micron diamonds was about $10 direct retail. this is a fifth or a tenth of what it was 15 years ago.
it's not really necessary to do that, it's other materials other than hardened steel that will pull the diamonds free quickly, but I could be underestimating how much pressure some folks may apply.
What the pattern suggested to me is the stones you have and the stones sold under the same brand are coming from the same origin as trend, which ultimately is a chinese manufactured stone. People will ask varying prices for them. Cosman, who I don't follow but looked up the diamond hone, has an ask of $140 USD. i think that's in poor taste, but it's my opinion.
Changes in the distribution system put you in a tough spot - if you have a buyer who is selling to trend and then trend to you and you get to eat all of the customer service, it's not as if you're getting them for $16 from China (I find what is probably the same stone on alibaba), but rather you have to rely on someone who is going to deliver something that customers will accept.
There's no much difference between any of these stones. the narrative with trend and now titman stuff, and I apologize if you find it harsh, but it is my objective opinion - attempts to make the stones seem like they're differentiated from lower cost stones and attempts to create some difference in describing them vs. ezelap and DMT, which would've been important at one point. DMT and Ezelap don't have quality problems - they have a problem that three or four people can't get in line and get them to a buyer and then still have room for a retailer with returns. so they are bounced out in the return and coupon era.
I agree that laser flatness isn't practical in stones. razor users found stones delivered by the person you're mentioning either not meeting that expectation by spec or perhaps examples that didn't meet spec. But my comment also still stands, it's extremely unlikely that .0005" is a spec met over the length of the hones and to state a number that is for a fraction of the length of the stone is again, poor taste. But that's not on you, that's on the ad copy - you can't sit and write original language for everything you market.
rob's model is different than most - he had a captive market when he started (my interpretation) and could sell things to them to increase revenue when doing on-site tool classes at woodcrafts. I understand he has a large family, though perhaps most of his kids are grown now. A captive audience and an open market with full information is a different thing. After that, you can rely on reputation to sell, for example, a $16 two sided hone for $140, but it is a tax on beginners of sorts. We've all been there.
The business model has changed in general, not so much for woodworking retailers, but that there's not much risk for buyers to do something like buy the "DMD" or whatever other hone may be out there. I've been through a bunch of them and see them as consumable when there's a need to use them (steels not cut well by anything else, usually, or refurbishing something that is really high hardness). At this point, that distribution model (someone buys 500 off of alibaba, looks them over quickly and puts them on amazon for $20) is superior unless there is a great difference in product quality. The narrative is designed to imply there is.
There isn't.
And in the minority case where something comes from amazon and it may not be quite right, it can just be returned.
I took microscope pictures of a spent lower cost diamond hone last year to compare to pictures that someone else had of an old EZE-lap when they were polycrystalline or a combination of polycrystalline and monocrystalline, and all we could see is that the stones were arranged slightly more neatly. there are large diamonds initially that will come off of the stone. I would imagine that some are outside of the grading parameters (though this would be easy to work around by just making hones with diamond that's been graded for lapidary supply), but they are removed pretty quickly at the outset.
At this point, we are seeing shifting of the names on stones but they are the same thing as decades ago and in some case, not as good (the polycrystalline stones have been pretty much eliminated because monocrystalline diamonds are less expensive. there is probably still some trickle of information floating around that monocrystalline is better or implying that it's more expensive, but the new ezelap hones are not as good as the old ones).
So what am i saying? if someone is going to import a diamond hone from china (not you, the retailer, but the distributor or perhaps an industry professional who splits off), give us something new or different. it's not 30 years ago and nothing involved in the process is costly at this point. milled mild steel, electroplate and closely graded diamonds are all commodity items. The last time I checked on lapidary supply, 100 carats of 0.5 micron diamonds was about $10 direct retail. this is a fifth or a tenth of what it was 15 years ago.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Peter you don't supply oily rocks for the disciples of Jacob? He will be crushed.....My feeling is if flatness is your aim then use Scary sharpening, if you want an easy sharpening system use diamonds. If you want to get in the zen zone use water stones. All the sharpening systems work they are just different, we supply these three systems so I don't have an axe to grind
Cheers
Peter
Pete
(correction - I looked today at lapidary grit. It's now $13.50 for 500 carats, or 100 grams in the US - with shipping. that's probably enough to make 100 or more diamond plates in terms of volume, and from experience, it's hard to use 100 carats of anything without losing most of it to a tipped unclosed bag or a hole in a baggie).
Entirely suitable to sprinkle on a finish oilstone for anyone sharpening something that's too much for an oilstone. The difference being that the oilstone won't have the feel of a steel mouthpiece like sharpening on all diamonds does.
Entirely suitable to sprinkle on a finish oilstone for anyone sharpening something that's too much for an oilstone. The difference being that the oilstone won't have the feel of a steel mouthpiece like sharpening on all diamonds does.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Good point!Peter you don't supply oily rocks for the disciples of Jacob? He will be crushed.
Pete
My first stone was a combi from Woolworths, probably 2/6d. 1960 ish
My second was free with course kit and was much the same in terms of grit but was 8" long instead of 6". Luxury!
They were all I used for many years. Still got them.
Later I caught a mild infection of the sharpening bug and acquired a jig and a few more stones; not that many - perhaps 10 altogether.
Realised that this was getting a bit silly after I'd bought 3 Eze-laps for £200 or so, which were a marginal improvement but not worth the money, so sold them on. Also inconveniently flat.
Last purchased, in the spirit of enquiry, a Norton IB8, which turned out to be similar grit to my first one ever from Woolworths. I'd highly recommend it as the ideal starter and general purpose stone. Every good dealer should stock them or something similar.
Only one finer grit needed and after cleaning the one I had been using for years discovered "Norton; Combination "0" on the end!
3 grits, all you need. Once bought, and boxes made, all you need for the rest of your life is bit bicycle oil now and again.
Haven't used a jig for years but I still have 2 in a drawer somewhere.
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the average person starting out probably won't have success with an IB8, but I've sent several coworkers toward one to sharpen their kitchen knives and made them a video on how to use it. None of them have failed sharpening with them.
they do have a pretty harsh break in period, but they're good stones on most steel aside from pinning, which is only going to be a consideration in fine work.
for people with means, an IM313 with a separate crystolon and fine india stone is superb. Not exactly a site-transportable kit, but excellent in a shop.
they do have a pretty harsh break in period, but they're good stones on most steel aside from pinning, which is only going to be a consideration in fine work.
for people with means, an IM313 with a separate crystolon and fine india stone is superb. Not exactly a site-transportable kit, but excellent in a shop.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Don't worry I don't need them. My little stock would last several lifetimes!Peter you don't supply oily rocks for the disciples of Jacob? He will be crushed.
Pete
But there needs to be something cheap and accessible for beginners - not the tedious pages of pseudo technical guff and the 1001 bewildering catalogue offerings.
spanner48
Established Member
Not necessarily. Diamond stones have two advantages:
1: They will cope with the hardest steels. I've come across some seels that sintered oilstones won't touch.
2: They stay flat. I got fed up with having to flatten worn oilstones with grit on a flat steel surface plate. That was 65 years ago . . . .
Much of my work involves flattening the 'Kissing Faces' on scissors-type tools [Scissors, pinking shears, secataurs, garden shears, hedge trimmers, loppers etc]. I tried that on a sintered oilstone; it was impossible. On even a worn diamond stone, it's slow but easy.
There ARE natural stones that don't wear: Black Hard Arkansas [Novaculite] . I have one that's 30 years old, and as flat as the day it was cut. But they're only available in the equivalent of 2000 - 3000 grit. So: not much use for flattening.
But yes: diamond stones - whether mono- or multi-crysatalline - are semi-disposible items
