Designing hardwood window frames - design tips?

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bryan.crotaz

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Any good sources of information, or tips of your own, on designing new wood frame casement windows for my own place? Assume I have a table saw, router table and jointer-thicknesser so I can get good accuracy.
I'm using vacuum glazing for excellent u-value, and looking at either oak or Accoya as my choice of wood. I want to achieve good weatherproofing and good thermals, and want a mix of fixed and tilt-turn windows.
 
This guy has a pretty comprehensive set of how to videos on youtube.



I have been looking at vacuum glazing lately but have found it difficult to find any sort of price to be able to make comparisons. Do you have a supplier?
 
Don't as you will struggle the price charged is indicative of expensive materials biggish capital expense and a large dash of skill and experience. But from the wooden window company who are a big outfoit(think an old focus) with prices online. Probably 260000+ in gear. Who can compete?
 
Any good sources of information, or tips of your own, on designing new wood frame casement windows for my own place? Assume I have a table saw, router table and jointer-thicknesser so I can get good accuracy.
I'm using vacuum glazing for excellent u-value, and looking at either oak or Accoya as my choice of wood. I want to achieve good weatherproofing and good thermals, and want a mix of fixed and tilt-turn windows.
Oak doesn't weather so well as paint tends not to stick. All screws fixings would have to be brass or stainless as oak is acidic.
In any case "weathering" depends as much on design details as materials, hence trad softwood windows can be very long lasting.
Other than that the thing to do is copy design details from any well established source.
 
The norm these days is to adopt designs that toolmakers have passed through the stringent new build regs.eg whitehill then you can use there drawings and values as gospel. The whitehill systems start at £10000 and really need more spent to fit the modern latches easily. That's just for one style not to mention the prerequisite of a 7.5hp spindle with feeder and sliding table!
And this is still a bit small potatoes tbh. The trend system is cheaper but really mickey mouse.
 
The norm these days is to adopt designs that toolmakers have passed through the stringent new build regs.eg whitehill then you can use there drawings and values as gospel. The whitehill systems start at £10000 and really need more spent to fit the modern latches easily. That's just for one style not to mention the prerequisite of a 7.5hp spindle with feeder and sliding table!
And this is still a bit small potatoes tbh. The trend system is cheaper but really mickey mouse.
Well yes router is definitely not the tool for the job!
We had a 5HP spindle which was good enough. Mine is now only 3HP on a combi machine but have done biggish jobs with it.
Windows plural can mean 100s of components so its essential to get a good system going with rods, cutting lists etc. You do all the mortices in one session - all the tenons in another etc. Doing one window at a time would take an age.
We ground all our own spindle cutters which saves a fortune - much cheaper than running a router.
 
> I have been looking at vacuum glazing lately but have found it difficult to find any sort of price to be able to make comparisons. Do you have a supplier?

https://www.fineoglass.eu/For me with 40 panes it worked out about £6000 including delivery from Belgium. Delivery is £500 fixed price regardless of size of delivery (up to 10 tons). They charge by size with a minimum charge (from memory) of 0.25sqm.
 
Any good sources of information, or tips of your own, on designing new wood frame casement windows for my own place? Assume I have a table saw, router table and jointer-thicknesser so I can get good accuracy.
I'm using vacuum glazing for excellent u-value, and looking at either oak or Accoya as my choice of wood. I want to achieve good weatherproofing and good thermals, and want a mix of fixed and tilt-turn windows.
I’ve gleaned prices are £250-£350 per m2 depending on volume and pane size. Lots of small panes and you pay more per m2. Delivery is then a big chunk on top. Pilkington and Landvac less expensive than Fineo. For a precise cost you need to provide a list to a supplier.

Trying to move house at the moment and the place we like has lots of single glazed windows. Replacement/refurb with vacuum glazing is on my list also.
 
I would add three machines, firstly a spindle moulder with a power feed, a Morticer and a two or preferably a three headed tenoner. If you’re making windows with say a curved head you will also need a bandsaw. Buying secondhand Sedgwick or say SCM machines is a chunk of change, but once you’ve made your project all can be sold again with no loss and possibly a small profit.

The nice thing is that the design of windows has changed little and although ironmongery has been updated the principles of making windows remains the same. There are any number of excellent books on traditional joinery used for windows construction. What has changed is sectional sized and the need for one, two, or three draft excluders built into the openings. Standard cutters for the profiles needed for the draft strips are standard off the shelf and consist primarily of either wipe and or compression seals.

When making new windows there is a whole bunch of ‘rules’ about designing windows to achieve minimum u-values, trickle vents, etc etc. Then your supposed to either have building control or a FENSA approved installer fit them.

I wouldn’t use oak unless its on show ie not painted and is important for the character of the building (eg chapel) . I don’t see the value in Accoya and in preference would select traditional redwood, Sapele or Douglas fir for the frames and Sapele for the cills. All will take paint well and if properly maintained and built will last more than a lifetime. Again just me, but avoid water based paint like the plague. You cant burn it off and it allows water to get underneath whilst maintaining a nice surface allowing rot to start. With new windows you can paint it with Linseed based paint which reduces maintenance intervals, prolongs the life of the windows and is cost effective.

Now, this is my approach, and not a recommendation! If I were replacing a few windows in an unlisted house I’d make them without worrying too much about the regs. I’d select a design from researching different profiles (a lot of company’s publish their profile detail) to select one that I felt offered good draft proofing, fitted the aesthetics I was after and I could make without too much specialist tooling. I’d opt for triple glazing unless it was sliding sashes and install them myself. In a few years, nobody will be nay the wiser, the windows will be a huge improvement over what I’d taken out and if I were to sell the house I’d be leaving something I’d improved significantly over what I had bought.
 
I went to a small joinery yesterday to pick up some old whitehills. I started in the office where the owner was designing on joinerysoft. In the assembly area about 4 guys were knocking frames together. One was bringing a barrow of pellets in for the heater. The machine shop was a bit smaller with lots of old iron and only a drum sander looking new. He let me have a load of old tooling while we chatted. Basically they use all fixed size tooling. Bit mix and match tbh but that is because all updated old joinerys bring a load of pre existing stuff that they don't want to throw. No one seemed to be a millionaire. They work from 7am until 5.30. Everyday. The guys wife was in the very cluttered small office. He said" at times its not worth doing this tbh and occasionally we will make some wages"
This was a typical joiners in 2023. In some ways very sophisticated but in many ways using tooling capital to deskill and speed up. But really even the owners only making a wage. I couldn't make windows like you want in any meaningful timeframe(I sold my whitehill window tools) without buying a load of gear. It's highly specialized(and a bit boring) as a dedicated manufacturer. Yes I'm guessing you've got a big quote to do your windows but it's a big job(especially with fitting)
 
The stuff mentioned above is all good - at the point I needed to make window frames for my workshop I only had a Kity 613 bandsaw and a small Bestcombi and certainly the latter was not man enough to cope with the sections required for double glazed units. I too looked over some of the big manufacturers published drawings upon which to base my design and opted perhaps unconventionally to build up the sections required for opening lights by using a rectangular section in which the DG unit sat and built up by gluing an internal and an external mitred face so as to achieve the desired profile. I used Sapele for mine because I wanted a natural finish but could have painted them if I wished.
The retaining frame profiles were roughed out on the table saw and a finishing pass on the puny spindle moulder.
One advantage of going down this route was that things like slots/recess for Aquamac type weatherproofing could be performed using a router prior to planting the sections and also allowed slots to be cut to accommodate espagnolette bolts etc to be cut relatively easily.
The windows have been installed now for >10y in a pretty exposed location and the frames and lights have not moved at all - I guess the relatively large glued surface area has helped and so another route you could consider, and one not requiring a huge investment in large and expensive kit.
 
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