Copyright

[studders]

Sorry to bang on but.....

I think some people are missing the point (spilling chequers aside) on the Bench thread.
I've started a new thread so as not to hijack 'Tha Mooooooooooooses' thread, any further than it has been.

A claim has been made, and has been made by others too on other occasions, that what appears to be a bog standard design is in fact their 'Intellectual Property' and copyright.
What I want to know is how is that possible if it has been done so many times before?
If I take a bog standard Park Bench and drill some 'artistic' holes in it can I claim the whole was my Intellectual Property? I think not but maybe I'm wrong.
This is a subject that may concern many of us here given what we're doing. How do we know the seemingly standard Bench we've just made, with or without holes, won't be construed as a copy?

 

[big soft moose]

Sorry to bang on but.....

I think some people are missing the point (spilling chequers aside) on the Bench thread.
I've started a new thread so as not to hijack 'Tha Mooooooooooooses' thread, any further than it has been.

A claim has been made, and has been made by others too on other occasions, that what appears to be a bog standard design is in fact their 'Intellectual Property' and copyright.
What I want to know is how is that possible if it has been done so many times before?
If I take a bog standard Park Bench and drill some 'artistic' holes in it can I claim the whole was my Intellectual Property? I think not but maybe I'm wrong.
This is a subject that may concern many of us here given what we're doing. How do we know the seemingly standard Bench we've just made, with or without holes, won't be construed as a copy?

I think you are probably right - but any photos of it you display are definitely copyright to you, and therefore cant be used elsewhere (chris mentioned to me in a pm that some of the court victories pertained to people lifting pics of work and claiming it as their own - rather like that twit Mr Pink did to Brad last year)

That aside I would guess that if intelectual property rights do exist it would only be to exact copies - and in order to win a court case it would be necessary to demonstrate that you'd knowingly copied the work - and that the original work was itself not a copy of another piece

that said i'm not a lawyer so you probably need jake or one of his bretheren for a defenitive answer.

 

[studders]

Or not photograph what I make and put it on my (hobby) website.
Or could I use a disclaimer if I did? Hmmmmmm ???
Or am I being paranoid? Hmmmmmm???

 

[big soft moose]

Or am I being paranoid? Hmmmmmm???

Just cos you're paranoid doesnt mean they aren't out to get you :lol:

 

[studders]

I've made a special cloak out of foil, that'll er... foil them.
I may claim it as my intellectual property so, no copying.

 

[BradNaylor]

I think you are probably right - but any photos of it you display are definitely copyright to you, and therefore cant be used elsewhere (chris mentioned to me in a pm that some of the court victories pertained to people lifting pics of work and claiming it as their own - rather like that twit Mr Pink did to Brad last year)

That's another matter entirely.

If I photograph a piece I have made, publish it on my website, and then someone nicks the photo and claims it as their own - then that is a clear breach of copyright. It is the image that has been stolen - not necessarily the design. The image is undeniably my property, and is protected.

Proving that a particular design of furniture is one's intellectual property however, is a lot more difficult. Hardly anything is completely original - nearly all designs draw on previous efforts by other people. It would be arrogant in the extreme to assert that a design you came up with had never been thought of before.

Not to mention unbelievable.

 

[TheTiddles]

As is pretty obvious, it's a slightly complicated subject that is predicated on case law.

In short, if you are really concerned about "your" designs being copied, immitated or otherwise used for inspiration, don't publish pictures of them, don't offer them for sale, don't tell anyone about them, in fact, don't make them either, that'll keep them safe. Otherwise... grow up and join the real world

Aidan

 

[samharber]

There's a whole load of hurt in 'derivative works', especially in American law. I've no idea what the status is here in the UK, but probably horribly complex.

 

[Chems]

I think realistically speak, no idea of the legalities, it would be impossibly hard to prove and very expensive. More money than would be worth for a furniture maker to quibble over.

For a start, how do you prove its yours and not taken from other designs?

JKRowling had that problem with Harry Potter, she was sued from every which angle for a while with people claiming that they had come up with certain aspects of her story before. I think the judges bottom line was that there are only ever a finite amount of individual ideas.

From a woodworking point of view, somebody on here copied my design and I was so very flattered. An I would be in a commercial sense as well.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

Im always worried that my designs (original to me, not copied in anyway, all out of my freak brain) have already been done as there so simple and basic and im in breach of copyright.

I think in the end i should be able to prove i came up with it myself and unknowingly was making a copy, so think "shut up and do it you fool" to myself.

 

[tisdai]

Hudson

At the end of the day, if you have designed somthing and then created it in any way or form you have nothing to worry about. Once you put pen to paper and start creating somthing unigue to yourself even if it resembles somthing that you have never seen, providing you have proof of your design then don't worry about it.

Being into computers myself and doing a degree in multimedia technoligies we have it drummed into us about copyright and plagarisim, they now have software to scan the net and link it to your work to see if it has been copied from another piece of work. People are going crazy over the right to protect their work and go to any lengths to do so.

If anyone wanted to copy any of my work i would be proud of the fact that their is someone else out thier who likes it enough to do so.

Well that is my 2 pence worth lol.

Dave

 

[srp]

Copyright law doesn't apply to pieces of furniture. It covers:

Types of work protected
Literary - song lyrics, manuscripts, manuals, computer programs, commercial documents, leaflets, newsletters & articles etc.
Dramatic - plays, dance, etc.
Musical - recordings and score.
Artistic - photography, painting, sculptures, architecture, technical drawings/diagrams, maps, logos.
Typographical arrangement of published editions - eg magazines, periodicals, etc.
Sound recording - may be recordings of other copyright works, e.g. musical and literary.
Films - broadcasts and cable programmes.
The Copyright (Computer Programs) Regulations 1992 extended the rules covering literary works to include computer programs.

Source: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law

If you want to protect something like a piece of furniture you have to go for Registered Design by applying to the Intellectual Property Office Design Registry. The piece must be new (ie not previously available) and be original in appearance.

So, you might be able to claim copyright of the drawing of a bench that you produced by your own hand, but if you publish the drawing (eg by posting it on the internet) you can't stop people actually making the bench to your design, unless the bench was new and original, and you have registered the design as above.

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

Now if people had read my whole post in the bench thread and not locked onto the spelling part (which by the way does irritate me (miss-spelling that is not the locking on)). I did provide a link & quote from a copyright site for uk law.

here it is again for those that went straight to my spelling rant.

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law

Copyright is an automatic right and arises whenever an individual or company creates a work. To qualify, a work should be regarded as original, and exhibit a degree of labour, skill or judgement.

EDIT: My quote is redundant as i hadn't seen SRP's post.

If I take a photo of my shoe that photo is copyright to me and is mine and you cannot reproduce it or use it without my permission.

Artistic copyright which is what design comes under (i think) can be a lot harder to prove. Now there is a catch I think copyright infringement is a civil matter not a criminal one which means that you don't need "beyond a reasonable doubt", you just need 50% weighting in your favour.

I know in software there is a "look and feel" copyright (or something, in the US at least) to stop people copying user interfaces directly that may be possible to argue that your bench looks and feels the same as his, coupled with you visiting his site before hand could lean towards copyright infringement.

Brad hit the mail on the head I think with his post.

 

[srp]

Artistic copyright which is what design comes under (i think) can be a lot harder to prove.

Possibly - you could argue that the piece is a sculpture, but that might be difficult if it has the word 'bench' in its' description. I think that as its' primary purpose is to provide seating then it might be regarded as a piece of garden furniture rather than a sculpture, in which case the copyright law can't be applied.

 

[mailee]

Well lets put it this way, no one has ever tried to sue Norm Abraham as far as I know and if they were going to then the USA is the place to do it. I have built dozens of pieces of furniture in the past all based on classical designs as I should imagine have most of us on here. :roll:

 

[studders]

After an overnight kip to rejuvenate the little grey cells the names Maloof and Krenov popped into my head, I'm sure there are many others that could be thought of in the same way. The 'thought' being... they were copied by hundreds if not thousands of people.
I don't know enough about them to know what they did, if anything, about those copies. Were their ideas/designs not themselves original? What did they make of people copying their works? Did they sue anyone?

 

[miles_hot]

I thought that "different" thing about people like Krenov was the manner of working - allowing the wood to dictate the design to a much greater extent than normal.

As such it would have been impossible to claim that this is "New" as people would have pointed to bodgers and the like to destroy such a claim.

Regards

Miles

 

[theartfulbodger]

people would have pointed to bodgers and the like to destroy such a claim.

#-o people like me seem to get blamed for everything #-o



:-({|=

 

[tomatwark]

I get customers asking me from time to time to copy a piece the already have.

If it is a classical design such as a Shearton Sofa Table for example I don't see a problem as this has been done time and time again.

If how ever someone came in with a Mousey Thompson Table and wanted an exact copy including mouse I would refuse as the mouse is their trade mark.

I would design and make a piece to compliment it but never a direct copy.

Tom

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

I get customers asking me from time to time to copy a piece the already have.

If it is a classical design such as a Shearton Sofa Table for example I don't see a problem as this has been done time and time again.

If how ever someone came in with a Mousey Thompson Table and wanted an exact copy including mouse I would refuse as the mouse is their trade mark.

I would design and make a piece to compliment it but never a direct copy.

Tom

You would be correct to refuse but you wouldn't be guilty of copyright infringement if you did, you would be guilty of trademark infringement & potentially piracy / making counterfeit goods.