Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi there, As a matter of interest, I notice that your avatar is very similar to mine. Would it be a lute perchance?
Regards.....Dick.
Regards.....Dick.
Calllig MIGNAL
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Cegidfa
Established Member
Hello MIGNAL,
My avatar is the rose of the progenitor of the lute - the Arab Oud.
I first heard one played by Anouar Brahem on the cd Barzakh, and fell in love with the sound.
Having made a guitar many years ago, I feel drawn to constructing an oud, but it seems more akin to boat building, on a very small scale. May I ask how you created the rib joining angles?
I wonder, are you, like me, coming from a guitar playing background, and therefore wanting to play the finished instrument; or was it as a woodworking exercise?
Regards....Dick
My avatar is the rose of the progenitor of the lute - the Arab Oud.
I first heard one played by Anouar Brahem on the cd Barzakh, and fell in love with the sound.
Having made a guitar many years ago, I feel drawn to constructing an oud, but it seems more akin to boat building, on a very small scale. May I ask how you created the rib joining angles?
I wonder, are you, like me, coming from a guitar playing background, and therefore wanting to play the finished instrument; or was it as a woodworking exercise?
Regards....Dick
I'm a pro Guitar maker but the Lute was made for me to play. I sold it within a couple of months of completion, so that was the end of that. These days I tinkle around on a Baroque Guitar.
I don't know a great deal about Ouds but I think I'm correct in stating that the bowl is based on a semi circle. Not so with most Lutes, they have a flattened profile which makes each rib different - including the angle of each joint.
If it's based on a semi circle the easiest way is to make the 'orange segment'. Clamp the rib to the segment and plane it down so that it ends a little proud. That gets the rib close but far from exact. Final jointing can either be done on the mould or on an upside down long plane - pretty much the way that Coopers join their staves. In fact some Lute makers mount the plane on a large wooden board, the cutting iron projecting through a 'mouth' on that very board.
I don't know a great deal about Ouds but I think I'm correct in stating that the bowl is based on a semi circle. Not so with most Lutes, they have a flattened profile which makes each rib different - including the angle of each joint.
If it's based on a semi circle the easiest way is to make the 'orange segment'. Clamp the rib to the segment and plane it down so that it ends a little proud. That gets the rib close but far from exact. Final jointing can either be done on the mould or on an upside down long plane - pretty much the way that Coopers join their staves. In fact some Lute makers mount the plane on a large wooden board, the cutting iron projecting through a 'mouth' on that very board.
xy mosian
Established Member
If I may add two pen'orth. Way back in the 70's I made a couple of Lutes. One based on the Heiber and the other after an modern american maker Daum. I agree entirely with the 'orange segment'. I had trouble getting a plane to work well on the fine edge, as in the coopers plane. My method was to cut the rib to shape and then bend it, dry heat but sometimes a little steam. To get the correct bevel on the edge I stuck some Garnet paper onto a large board and shuffled the, now bent, rib around until the bevel was formed. My ribs were about 2mm, sometimes less, and I had found that the plane was tending to tear chunks out of the edge. It was difficult to work at the widest part of the rib, where the grain effectively changes direction, but where the bevel is most pronounced.
I understand that OUD's are still made in some parts of northern Africa, using traditional methods. Now that would be an experience seeing that happen.
HTH
xy
I understand that OUD's are still made in some parts of northern Africa, using traditional methods. Now that would be an experience seeing that happen.
HTH
xy
Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi MIGNAL,
Thanks for that, I wondered if you had developed a different strategy of your own, but I suppose that the coopering method is probably the oldest and most logical. I have seen woodblock prints from the 15th century showing the method you describe.
The oud is based on a semi circle as you say, although different countries have their own profile preferences. There are two methods of construction, one is using a complete mould and the other, a free assembly, see pic below.
Having said that I made a guitar many years ago, due to changing work patterns I couldn’t complete the evening class, and then 15 % mortgage rates killed everything.
The one thing that I haven’t done is make and fit the bridge. The problem now is that I have lost the information that contained the scale length...it is thirty years ish ago.
If you don’t mind me asking, is there any way of measuring the frets, say to the twelfth and extrapolate what it might be? Any advice would be appreciated.
I am intrigued to find out what it sounds like, as it was slightly different to the normal acoustic guitar build. The back and sides were mahogany and the front is cedar, with the neck joined using a slipper foot, normally used on a classical guitar. It is loosely modelled on a pre-war Martin 00 series with the slotted head.
Hi xy,
Thanks for the info, as it happens, your method is used by a number of makers, as it gets round the tear out.
Did you make your lutes to play? As to ouds being made by traditional methods, I suppose it depends on what you describe as ‘traditional’. I have seen home made video of a few workshops in the middle east, and there were no bandsaws, tablesaws etc in evidence. In fact, the shops weren’t large enough to accommodate them. So I would suggest that the greater majority of makers are using traditional methods. The spread of makers is vast; I have found people from Turkey to Iraq (some of whom have moved to Syria understandably) across Egypt to northern Africa. I also have video of al jazeera tv music shows, what a wonderful culture shock. Oud music is not to a lot of european taste, largely because it sounds as if ‘bum’ notes are being played.This is due to the scales used being utterly different to ours.
Regards....Dick.
Thanks for that, I wondered if you had developed a different strategy of your own, but I suppose that the coopering method is probably the oldest and most logical. I have seen woodblock prints from the 15th century showing the method you describe.
The oud is based on a semi circle as you say, although different countries have their own profile preferences. There are two methods of construction, one is using a complete mould and the other, a free assembly, see pic below.
Having said that I made a guitar many years ago, due to changing work patterns I couldn’t complete the evening class, and then 15 % mortgage rates killed everything.
The one thing that I haven’t done is make and fit the bridge. The problem now is that I have lost the information that contained the scale length...it is thirty years ish ago.
If you don’t mind me asking, is there any way of measuring the frets, say to the twelfth and extrapolate what it might be? Any advice would be appreciated.
I am intrigued to find out what it sounds like, as it was slightly different to the normal acoustic guitar build. The back and sides were mahogany and the front is cedar, with the neck joined using a slipper foot, normally used on a classical guitar. It is loosely modelled on a pre-war Martin 00 series with the slotted head.
Hi xy,
Thanks for the info, as it happens, your method is used by a number of makers, as it gets round the tear out.
Did you make your lutes to play? As to ouds being made by traditional methods, I suppose it depends on what you describe as ‘traditional’. I have seen home made video of a few workshops in the middle east, and there were no bandsaws, tablesaws etc in evidence. In fact, the shops weren’t large enough to accommodate them. So I would suggest that the greater majority of makers are using traditional methods. The spread of makers is vast; I have found people from Turkey to Iraq (some of whom have moved to Syria understandably) across Egypt to northern Africa. I also have video of al jazeera tv music shows, what a wonderful culture shock. Oud music is not to a lot of european taste, largely because it sounds as if ‘bum’ notes are being played.This is due to the scales used being utterly different to ours.
Regards....Dick.
Yes, measure from the very end of the fretboard (Nut end) to the centre of the 12th fret. Double it gives the scale length. Add on a certain amount for the 'compensation'. For a Nylon strung it is usually around 2 mm's - you also have a little adjustment in the position of the apex of the saddle.
It won't play in tune - non of them do! but that's a whole subject in itself. Close is good enough for the vast majority of ears.
It won't play in tune - non of them do! but that's a whole subject in itself. Close is good enough for the vast majority of ears.
xy mosian
Established Member
Dick. Yes I made my lutes for me to play. I was singing a lot in those days, mainly early stuff and it seemed quite natural, as an amateur woodworker, to make my own lute. The only ones generally available were hand made, and for me expensive. Anyway it was great fun researching and driving around finding materials. Of course, as so often in my life, I got distracted and considered making Lutes professionally. I even went for a Job as luthier, the set up didn't appeal and I saw sense :?
You have got me thinking, what does 'traditional' mean. I think I mean long established practice, which in woodworking seems to mean hand techniques, pre-motor driven machinery. Perhaps even cutting the shape of ribs with a knife, a rocking motion giving the angle at the edge for example?
xy
You have got me thinking, what does 'traditional' mean. I think I mean long established practice, which in woodworking seems to mean hand techniques, pre-motor driven machinery. Perhaps even cutting the shape of ribs with a knife, a rocking motion giving the angle at the edge for example?
xy
Just butting in here... I'm dead impressed by both of your avatars! Is it done with a fine drill and a piercing saw? How do you mark the pattern? Is the finish straight from the saw?
And did you just make one, which turned out that good - or were there a lot of practice ones first?
And did you just make one, which turned out that good - or were there a lot of practice ones first?
Not a piercing saw, that would be a rather risky because of the thin Spruce and the soft grain.
There are 2 methods used. Some makers use a scalpel, making plunge cuts. The other method is to use very thin 'gouges' (user made). The cutting edges of these are not much thicker than a razor blade.
A paper pattern is glued to the soundboard. Once the openings are cut each member is chamfered, so it's cross section is shaped like a house roof.
It really does need practice to obtain clean and convincing results.
There are 2 methods used. Some makers use a scalpel, making plunge cuts. The other method is to use very thin 'gouges' (user made). The cutting edges of these are not much thicker than a razor blade.
A paper pattern is glued to the soundboard. Once the openings are cut each member is chamfered, so it's cross section is shaped like a house roof.
It really does need practice to obtain clean and convincing results.
Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi MIGNAL,
Thanks for the info. Perhaps when the workshop is finished, I can finally finish it. What glue would you recommend for the bridge? Would hide type be strong enough, as, if I "folked" up, I could at least remove it and try again?
That is beautiful workmanship. Thanks for putting up the pics. I don't think that I have long enough left on earth to carve the rose, even supposing I had the ability.
If that is the standard I have to achieve, perhaps I should consider something less demanding, like The Sun crossword.
Do you have a website for your guitar work?
Regards...Dick.
Thanks for the info. Perhaps when the workshop is finished, I can finally finish it. What glue would you recommend for the bridge? Would hide type be strong enough, as, if I "folked" up, I could at least remove it and try again?
That is beautiful workmanship. Thanks for putting up the pics. I don't think that I have long enough left on earth to carve the rose, even supposing I had the ability.
If that is the standard I have to achieve, perhaps I should consider something less demanding, like The Sun crossword.
Do you have a website for your guitar work?
Regards...Dick.
Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi Andy,
Oud makers are a more pragmatic lot. Or should that read...less skilled?
The rose is a separate item and therefore not so botty pouting to make.
Could that stem from the fact that trees in the desert are like rocking horse droppings? Either way the skill required to make both instruments is very high.
I quail at the thought of making one. But it won't stop me; you just won't see it on here. Except as a 'how not to make an oud'.
Regards...Dick.
Oud makers are a more pragmatic lot. Or should that read...less skilled?
The rose is a separate item and therefore not so botty pouting to make.
Could that stem from the fact that trees in the desert are like rocking horse droppings? Either way the skill required to make both instruments is very high.
I quail at the thought of making one. But it won't stop me; you just won't see it on here. Except as a 'how not to make an oud'.
Regards...Dick.
I wouldn't say it's less skilled, just slightly different. Original roses on some Baroque Guitars were made separate from the soundboard, usually made of layers of Pearwood.
By all means use Hide glue for your bridge. It's practically the only glue that I use and it is certainly a better glue for that application than PVA. Provided there isn't too much 'give' in the soundboard you can glue the bridge and hold it with light finger pressure for a few minutes. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen? Except that I've done that on around 20 instruments and I haven't had one come off yet! Not bad for something with such a small footprint and yet has to take some 35Kg of pull.
Positioning is fairly easy. I simply make very small 'tabs' of masking tape that are 4 or 5 layers thick. Position 2 in front of the bridge and one each at the ends of the bridge. Measure, check and reposition the tabs if necessary.
By all means use Hide glue for your bridge. It's practically the only glue that I use and it is certainly a better glue for that application than PVA. Provided there isn't too much 'give' in the soundboard you can glue the bridge and hold it with light finger pressure for a few minutes. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen? Except that I've done that on around 20 instruments and I haven't had one come off yet! Not bad for something with such a small footprint and yet has to take some 35Kg of pull.
Positioning is fairly easy. I simply make very small 'tabs' of masking tape that are 4 or 5 layers thick. Position 2 in front of the bridge and one each at the ends of the bridge. Measure, check and reposition the tabs if necessary.
Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi MIGNAL,
When I suggested that oud makers might be less skilled, my tongue was firmly in my cheek. The reality is that in many places where ouds are made, trees are/were, often sparse, hence the possible pragmatism. There is always the thought that a recessed rose would give a shadow line, which always enhances any form of 'building'.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply, it is this sort of support that makes this, in my opinion, the best forum.
Do I take it that the hide glue would be ok for steel strings, as looking up date on string tension, at medium weight, the figures are in the low fourties?
Thanks in advance...Dick.
When I suggested that oud makers might be less skilled, my tongue was firmly in my cheek. The reality is that in many places where ouds are made, trees are/were, often sparse, hence the possible pragmatism. There is always the thought that a recessed rose would give a shadow line, which always enhances any form of 'building'.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply, it is this sort of support that makes this, in my opinion, the best forum.
Do I take it that the hide glue would be ok for steel strings, as looking up date on string tension, at medium weight, the figures are in the low fourties?
Thanks in advance...Dick.
bugbear
Established Member
Oud's you say?
There's a guy who posts on woodnet, Jameel Abraham, who makes those. His skills are pretty good.
http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/
http://www.khalafoud.com/
BugBear
There's a guy who posts on woodnet, Jameel Abraham, who makes those. His skills are pretty good.
http://oudluthier.blogspot.com/
http://www.khalafoud.com/
BugBear
Cegidfa
Established Member
Hi bugbear,
Thanks for the link; as it happens, I have been following Jameel's progress for about six years now. Then, there were few blogs of that nature, and build info was scarce, so his blog was a breathe of fresh air. Can I take it that you have an interest in things oud? Do let us know about your interest. I didn't expect anyone on this site to even know what an oud is, most people I talk to about it don't.
I bought an oud from a junk shop about eight years ago. It is a pretty poor specimen, but it gave me some idea of size and proportion. A few years later I was presented with another oud by my daughter. She had just come back from 'playing in the sand' in Libya'. What a lovely surprise, and from a different part of the Arab world. It was bought in Tripoli from a souvenir shop.
All of which means that if I want a good, well made specimen, I would have to attempt 'the impossible Note to self - only work on the build when fully awake and when the 'cell' is in gear......Regards...Dick.
Thanks for the link; as it happens, I have been following Jameel's progress for about six years now. Then, there were few blogs of that nature, and build info was scarce, so his blog was a breathe of fresh air. Can I take it that you have an interest in things oud? Do let us know about your interest. I didn't expect anyone on this site to even know what an oud is, most people I talk to about it don't.
I bought an oud from a junk shop about eight years ago. It is a pretty poor specimen, but it gave me some idea of size and proportion. A few years later I was presented with another oud by my daughter. She had just come back from 'playing in the sand' in Libya'. What a lovely surprise, and from a different part of the Arab world. It was bought in Tripoli from a souvenir shop.
All of which means that if I want a good, well made specimen, I would have to attempt 'the impossible
Note to self - only work on the build when fully awake and when the 'cell' is in gear......Regards...Dick.bugbear
Established Member
Cegidfa":2p4b3623 said:
I'm interested in almost everything, from diamond polishing to iron smelting.
BugBear
