cabinet making

[jeffinfrance]

hi all,

been spurred into asking this question after reading the thread on cabinet making tools.

realising i am about to start doing some custom fit/bespoke (all 12 cabinets on this job are different) fitted wardrobes and cabinets, i thought it a good idea to check my methods.

for the couple of kitchens i have made before, i used screwed and glued butt joints all round. i could use this method again, but would rather up my game.

according to george, there are many framing joints, including but not limited to i'm sure:

butt, groove and tongue, rebated, plain mitre, tongued (biscuit) mitre, lipped mitre, lipped and tongue mitre and the double tongued mitre (similar to a mitre lock).

i'm thinking of two routes. biscuit or dowelled butt joints screwed through from top and bottom, with a rebated solid back panel just screwed & glued. or, mitre lock cutters for the spindle moulder for sides to tops and bottoms, with the same rebated back panel.

what would be considered "best practice" now?

anyone got experience of these, or other methods. i'm hoping to get some more of the same type of work in the spring.

jeff

 

[JonnyD]

I reckon the domino must be the favoured method these days amongst small makers. I pretty much domino and carcase screw all my cabinets together unless its a fine furniture commission where i will use more traditional joints as per ellis.

cheers

jon

 

[jasonB]

I tend to use biscuits and carcase screws but have the sides running full height with the base, top and shelves all the same width so the go between the uprights. Solid backs also same width (not rebated)and screwed in, a rebate is not ideal as you want teh back inset about 50mm to allow for services. I also tend to make my carcases 620deep not the usual 570mm with suitable wider worktops.

Jason

 

[petermillard]

...for the couple of kitchens i have made before, i used screwed and glued butt joints all round. i could use this method again, but would rather up my game...

Just out of interest, have any of your previous cabinets failed? Reason I ask is that I also used 'screwed 'n glued' butt joints when I started out, and whlist I've also 'upped my game' in the meantime (domino) I can't honestly say I've had measurably more success with the 'upped' game - I mean, I know the carcasses are stronger, but honestly, in the normal run of things, are they practically any better than what I made before??

Certainly I've had no complaints, and I recently visited a kitchen I put in about 4 years ago (probably the last one pre-domino) and the cabinets were holding up just fine under the general wear and tear of family life.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not 'dissing' quality or the desire to 'do better' it's just that sometimes I wonder if we're not massively over-delivering when we strive to 'do better'.

Food for thought - discuss.

Pete

 

[Karl]

I'd generally agree with Pete.

I use biscuits and carcass screws. As cabinets are generally butted upto each other, they give cumulative support. End panels cover any unsightly cabinetwork.

Under normal use I couldn't see them ever failing.

Cheers

Karl

 

[jeffinfrance]

thanks for your thoughts guys.

not sure the domino might not be overkill here jon. i'm sure its a lovely machine but i'm positive a decent biscuit jointer will give me just as good results.

not sure i'm with you on your design there jason. i know its quicker and easier to make bottom and back and shelves the same width, but surely for structural integrity, the walls should sit on the foundation...so to speak. it makes more sense to me to screw down from the top and from underneath and the back, they're all hidden. i'm with you on the gap for services, but i allow the gap on installation.

off to make some accurate drawings and buy a biscuit jointer......any tips?

 

[JoinerySolutions]

Jeff, skip the biscuit jointer and get a Domino.

I have used biscuiters for years, and they served me well, but would have preferred to say "I have used Domino's for years". :lol:

Biscuits only help align the work in one plane, dominoes in two, making assembly quicker and easier especially on big cabinets when working alone.
Also you can make your own dominoes from offcut timber very easily to get contrast effects in drawers (for example).

Don't just up your game....make your life easier too. :mrgreen:

Disclaimer: I neither work for or have shares in Festool, I just love to play(some call it work) with their tools.

Rob.

 

[jasonB]

Rob how much more accurate do you need to get the domino layout as with a biscuit joiner you have about 5mm of "adjustment" along the joint. I've wondered if the time saves in having the carcases self align is lost in the longer setting out.

Jeff I use a Lamello C3 and provided the legs pick up the ends of the side panels the load is straight down through the structure to the foundation, millions of flat packs can't be wrong

Jason

 

[jeffinfrance]

i see your point jason.

this job has sliding doors on some of the units, so the internal sides have to be 55mm narrower than the ends. putting the tops and bottoms inside the sides would mean more work. so for this job i'll be going with my method.

what biscuit jpointer would you use. i have also seen one of these which would do the alignment in both planes. what do you think?

http://www.lmc.tm.fr/index.php?cPath=50 ... ts_id=8562

its in french, but you'll get the idea from the pic.

the one issue with this and the domino is the 15mm depth of dominoes/dowels, that only leaves 3/4mm of the panel. i would have thought 10mm inset into the panel better.

saw this as well, but havn't got 7000euros

http://www.lmc.tm.fr/index.php?cPath=50 ... ts_id=4363

jeff

 

[Jake]

Rob how much more accurate do you need to get the domino layout as with a biscuit joiner you have about 5mm of "adjustment" along the joint. I've wondered if the time saves in having the carcases self align is lost in the longer setting out.

One of massive benefits of the domino is that it sets itself out, so setting out is quicker than biscuits (the actual plunging is a bit slower).

 

[jasonB]

One of massive benefits of the domino is that it sets itself out, so setting out is quicker than biscuits (the actual plunging is a bit slower).

I can see it will set itself from an edge but I typically use 4 biscuits across a 600mm carcase at approx 200cts how easy is this to do with the dom, I assume the cross stop would have to be used which starts to make it a cumbersom machine and you would need a wider bench. Also whats the blade life like in MFC and MDF

Jason

 

[Jake]

I assume the cross stop would have to be used which starts to make it a cumbersom machine

Yes, but I don't find it particularly cumbersome with the wings on.

Also whats the blade life like in MFC and MDF

One of the pros will give you a more meaningful answer that I can.

 

[Russ]

I tend to dowel and screw the tops and bottoms into the sides when making simple cabinets and never use glue, the same goes for fitting back panels, screw them straight onto the back. Never had a single problem using this method and it's less fluffing around.

Go for the Domino, I use it all the time and it saves me hours.

If your anywhere near le Gers I have a colleague that may be selling his.. don't know how much he wants though?

Russ

 

[jeffinfrance]

i'm in the gers russ.

wouldn't mind a look at one.

still a big difference in pricxe between the dewalt biscuit (£160) and the domino (£587) as it is only this joint i'm interested in (have a sedgwick morticer) will it make my life that much easier?

the other downside with the domino, is wanting to then upgrade all my other tools to festool.

where's your collegue?

jeff

 

[Russ]

We're both in Jegun just north of Auch.

Feel free to fly over..

Russ

 

[JoinerySolutions]

I assume the cross stop would have to be used which starts to make it a cumbersom machine

Yes, but I don't find it particularly cumbersome with the wings on.

Also whats the blade life like in MFC and MDF

One of the pros will give you a more meaningful answer that I can.

The cutters are tungsten carbide, and by all accounts a very good quality tungsten. ( I'm not a metallurgist so go by what I'm told)

Although the attachments for the Domino look a bit unwieldy the really work well with little, if any, detrimental handling issues.

I have nothing against good biscuit jointers or the Mafell Duo Dowell machine, I just feel on balance the most useful option when considering all three is the Domino. The cost issue was a big one for me as I had been out of work most of last year, joinery companies were laying people off or folding, my savings dwindled and instead of buiding them back up I am investing in new tooling. Am I mad? Probably! But it is paying me back with time savings and a better profit margin.
Regards, Rob.

 

[jeffinfrance]

if i didn't have my morticer, i would plump for the dom. dewalt biscuiter it is.

thanks guys,

jeff

 

[Benchwayze]

...for the couple of kitchens i have made before, i used screwed and glued butt joints all round. i could use this method again, but would rather up my game...

Just out of interest, have any of your previous cabinets failed? Reason I ask is that I also used 'screwed 'n glued' butt joints when I started out, and whlist I've also 'upped my game' in the meantime (domino) I can't honestly say I've had measurably more success with the 'upped' game - I mean, I know the carcasses are stronger, but honestly, in the normal run of things, are they practically any better than what I made before??

Certainly I've had no complaints, and I recently visited a kitchen I put in about 4 years ago (probably the last one pre-domino) and the cabinets were holding up just fine under the general wear and tear of family life.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not 'dissing' quality or the desire to 'do better' it's just that sometimes I wonder if we're not massively over-delivering when we strive to 'do better'.

Food for thought - discuss.

Pete

I know exactly what you mean Pete. I decided on a good pocket-hole set-up for my cabinets, and where necessary, back up the screws with biscuits. I would use a Domino, but I have to buy one first! Mustn't get carried away now must I!

Incidentally, I like your cross-cut jig for the hand-held power saw. I am struggling to accommodate the Triton now, so I will be looking at something similar to your jig.


Cheers
John