CA Glue

[marcros]

A little while ago, I had an email from FWW, about using super glue for furniture making. Has anybody done so?

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/108 ... ure-makers

The tech data sheets are a bit lacking http://bioformix.com/cms-assets/product ... d2500L.pdf and simply say to use at room temperature. I assume that you would get away with heating the workshop whilst you are in it, rather than worrying about temperatures dipping overnight in the depths of winter. Another month and I am going to be nervous about using pva in the unheated garage

 

[AES]

@marcos:

Never used CA for furniture but often on all types of wood in model aircraft (not just balsa) - often on highly-stressed joints (in relation to the wood sizes). CA works very well subject to:

1. The wood should be dampened slightly so that the CA wicks into the actual fibre of the wood before it sets (particularly so on birch ply, beech, spruce, etc);

2. Not all CA glues ("brands") are the same (stay off Pound Shop and market cheapos), not to mention the different viscosities commonly available;

3. Personally I find the best brands are UHU and Loctite (usual disclaimers);

4. The viscosities normally available are "normal" or "thin" - wicks in and sets VERY fast; "thick" or "jelly" - hardly wicks in at all and needs at least 3 or 4 minutes to set if not using accelerator; "medium" - somewhere between the above 2 extremes.

You're quite right to suggest that temperature affects drying time (and shelf life). Shelf life is typically not better than 3 to 4 months at room temperature (say 15 degrees C) before it hardens in the tube/bottle, but is at least double that if stored in the fridge. Setting times are also about doubled if temperatures are below about 15 degrees C. But I've used it (outside) with no problems with final joint strength down to about 0 degrees C (model aircradft crash repairs).

But I can see 2 big problems as far as furniture building is concerned:

First, the cost - it is MUCH more expensive than PVA, and often even more expensive than epoxy such as Devcon;

Second, relates to the first - the quantity that you'd need for furniture, not only in terms of the cost but also the difficulty of storing large quantities without it going off (especially so if you were in and out of it several times a day).

One other POSSIBLE problem is that some people are allergic to the "smokey" fumes that some of these products give off - I'm only mildly affected but it sometimes makes my eyes water and my throat itch (but I still use it @).

I'm definitely no furniture expert but I think you'd probably do better trying something other than Cyano Acrylate ("schnell kleber" or "second glue" or "instant glue" and/or other similar popular names).

HTH

Krgds
AES

 

[marcros]

The stuff that I linked to isnt available here. Another big disadvantage to me is that it will have absolutely no gap filling ability. I did have a chat with their technical bods, and they said

"This message is in response to your technical query regarding minimum operating temperature.
In the application of the adhesive, you should not attempt to bond substrates below 32oF (0oC). The adhesive will not freeze at this temperature, but the viscosity will be very thick, and the fixture time will be rather slow. Therefore, you should give the bond extra time before removing any clamps and stressing the joint. How much extra time is dependent on the actual temperature and the substrates involved.
Once components have been successfully bonded, the adhesive can withstand temperatures down to approximately -40oC/F, however, bonds between dissimilar substrates may not perform well due to differential thermal expansion/contraction at the bond-line."


I think that i will stick to small winter projects that can be glued inside. It sounds like the nexabond would work, if we could get it.

 

[rafezetter]

I've used CA for a few smaller projects and modelling also for many years and the only thing I would add is that I've noticed no discernable difference between brands for adhesiveness - it's stuck everything I've tried it for, and several things that got in the way (but not teeth yet LOL). I've also used "zap-a-gap" which is branded for modelling and found it's no better than the pound shop stuff I buy (by the basketload) - with two major points to consider: some of the branded CA's come in larger bottles, in relative terms and I've often ended up throwing it away due to it thickening to jelly, because of constant exposure to air for the whole bottle when I only use a little, by comparison the poundshop bottles (not foil squeeze tubes) are 7g bottles and thus if one goes off, or gets too clogged to fix, it's a small amount wasted. The ones I get here are 4 small 7g bottles per display card for £1. Zap-a-gap in my local antics is £4.99 for a 14g bottle, the nozzle gets clogged far too easily and I'm sometimes resorted to cutting it right off and pouring it out instead of squeezing.

£5 for 14g branded or £5 for 140g in smaller, easier to use bottles. I'll never go back to branded again.

 

[iNewbie]

Interesting...

I was looking for some answers on Superglue myself, tonight. Came across this company - which made me ponder about shelf-life of some of the stuff on the market, if true: Mercury Adhesives

 

[blackrodd]

If its any help, i use Joiners Mate, in a mastic tube. sets quite fast. It will expand to fill the whole jointing area making a good, fast join. Alot of joints for less than a fiver! I cut the nozzle slightly smaller than a 4" nail, push the nail in and wrap some good tape around. lasts for months. and as mentioned don't use cold glue, in the cold, with cold timber. I am not a great lover of any water based glues for exterior use. Been caught out in the past a few times! regards rodders

 

[AES]

@rafezetter:
Interesting comments, thanks. As in my previous post I never had any luck with "cheapo" CA (weak joints due to failure to wick in fully was my main problem) but clearly from your experience not all cheapo brands are equal.

@iNewbie:
Thanks for your post and the link. Very useful.

@blackrodd:

What's Joiners Mate please? Never heard of it/seen it. Any idea who makes it (I may be able to find it here in Switzerland, though doubtless under another name - e.g. "Schreinersfreund" perhaps!

Krgds
AES

 

[iNewbie]

I would assume he means this one, Aes - as its in a cartridge. The other type is in a bottle.

 

[AES]

Thanks iNewbie. That looks just the ticket and I've never heard of it/seen it before. I've sent their sales people an enquiry about retailers in Switzerland.

Krgds
AES

 

[Shrubby]

AES
the geocel stuff is a PU adhesive - PU kleber
You should find Balcotan ,Semparoc or the Henkel stuff locally
CA ,PU and Epoxies are problem solving glues for me rather than everyday use - they are usually more expensive and toxic than PVAs
Matt

 

[blackrodd]

I would assume he means this one, Aes - as its in a cartridge. The other type is in a bottle.

Thanks newbie, that's the stuff! they only do the big tubs now so the tubes are quite economical. regards Rodders

 

[AES]

Thanks Rodders & Mat. Balcotan & Henkel are common brands/manufacturers here, but I've never seen the Semparoc. I'll see what the Geocel people have to say about local retailers on Monday.

Agreed that Epoxy, etc are problem solvers, and as I work in the cellar PVA is not a problem (re getting to cold) it's just that i seem to generate quite a few problems so a good "armoury" of glues & stuff is a good thing to have up my sleeve.

:x

Cheers

AES

 

[Graham Orm]

I use super glue with spray activator all the time at work (kitchen fitting). It's very under-rated in its versatility. The only down side for me is that it sticks anything and everything it comes into contact with. You have to be VERY careful when pressing joints together. I use it for mitres and small jobs but have never tried a large joint with it. I can't see it being practical because there is pretty much zero open time, once the joint's together that's it, no movement. As previously stated, all 'super glues' seem to be as good as each other.
As far as temp is concerned my work is usually in a heated environment so I can't say about cold. I bring all glues out of the van when the weather gets cold.

I'd be interested in seeing furniture being made with it.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Just one FYI if you keep an opened tube in the freezer with the cap firmly on its open life is in months or years, not weeks. YMMV

 

[AES]

Gents,

Just to "close the loop" for anyone who, like me, wants to try this Joiners Mate glue (PU or CA, not sure which) mentioned above. Geocel's sales dept replied to me - they don't have retailers in Switzerland but are prepared to supply direct but only for minimum orders of a box of 12 off of those cartridges. That's obviouslöy too much for me as a one-off user but they did supply a link to one of their UK distributors called RS Components (I'm not sure but THINK this company used to be called Radio Spares).

Anyway for anyone else who's interested, here's the info that Geocel sent me:

QUOTE:
For small quantities you could try "RS Components" - their weblink is below and they have an international sales network;

http://www.rs-components.com/index.html

I have also provided the product link also which may help you with ordering the product you need - quote the RS Stock code: 113-020;

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cyanoacry ... 4E4F4E4526
UNQUOTE:

Hope that helps. I'll try it some time and advise how it goes.

Krgds
AES

 

[custard]

Zap A Gap only seems to work with wood when you use the spray accelerator, which then makes it difficult to position before it sets hard! The best superglues I've found for woodwork applications are the Titebond CA range,

http://www.titebond.com/instant_bond/In ... kFast.aspx