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Brake advice

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ade_tumu

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Hi, can anyone give me an indication of the cost of having a brake fitted to a machine so that it stops in under 10s? Also, just to clarify, if I have an old machine which doesn't stop in less then 10s, is it illegal to use (a) for personal use, (b) for business use but only for oneself i.e. no employees and (c) for business use by an employee. (I'm looking to set up a professional workshop over the next year or so but intially it just be hobby status.) Thanks for yor help.
 

Chrispy

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As far as I understand, if you don't employ any one then the Heath and safety people have no say on what you do.
So long as you are happy using older machines with older safety features fine but you can't employ people to use these machines un less they conform to the modern regulations.
 

deserter

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That's not strictly true, if the machine wasn't originally made with a brake and is made before the date of the h&s act coming into force, then you are under no obligation to fit a brake. The trouble however is that you won't get any insurance company willing to insure you or your employees against injury whilst operating it, which inturn will make it illegal to employ people.
As for the cost of retro fitting a brake it depends on the machine and some like bandsaws have a foot operated brake which does cover you.
 

Logos

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If the machine is solely for your own personal use and not for trade purposes then the issue of health and safety is of less concern to you, for legal purposes at least. This of course does not mean that you shouldn't take it seriously but for all intents and purposes the health and safety regulations apply at the workplace and not at your shed/workshop where your hobby is being carried out. Saying that you must always bear in mind the possibility of a third party (e.g a visitor or a friend) having an accident whilst being with you.

However if the machinery is used for trade purposes then the health and safety regulations apply, irrespective as to whether you are self employed and have no employees or whether you are an employer. If you are an employer though, or you decide that you wish to employ someone in the near future, then you have additional responsibilities (e.g carrying out a risk assessment and so on). Health and Safety regulations appy at the workplace because they derive their power from the primary source of legislation, which is the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. In other words the main question is whether you will be using the machinery for work purposes? if the answer is yes, then the health and safety regulations apply.

The fact that the machinery is old is immaterial since all machines that are used for work (at least in this context) need to have a braking device, retrofitted if they did not have one to start with, since 2003. I hope this helps.

Regards

Logos
 

Benchwayze

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I don't get the electric brake regs. It doesn't take 10 seconds to lose a finger or two. Nor does an electric brake prevent you leaving the saw running by mistake.

The only advantage I can see in an electric brake is that it stops the blade quickly enough for you to walk away from the table without any worries about run-on. But what do you save? 20-30 seconds? And all at the expense of bits shaking loose from the machine, as happened to a contractors' saw I once owned. (Half-way through a cut, the stand started to collapse one me, because I hadn't noticed that a couple of nuts had worked loose. ) I sold the machine because of that; although I did warn the guy who bought it to wire up the offending nuts!

So that's another reason I don't want a circular saw, unless I could house a big cast iron, cabinet saw. Something like a Wadkin? :tool:
 

deserter

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The regulations you need to refer to are not health and safety at all. Woodworking machines are covered by PUWER, check these out they are a lot easier to understand.

Benchwayze the idea is that taking a table saw as an example if it stops within 10 seconds in theory by the time you clear the machine and the next operator steps on the blade will of stopped this preventing someone inadvertently touching a spinning blade.
 

Digit

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It doesn't take 10 seconds to lose a finger or two.
A view I have commented on John, a bit like the discussion under 'Hooray!' It's simply going through the motions.

Roy.
 

Benchwayze

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deserter":23ful8t9 said:
The regulations you need to refer to are not health and safety at all. Woodworking machines are covered by PUWER, check these out they are a lot easier to understand.

Benchwayze the idea is that taking a table saw as an example if it stops within 10 seconds in theory by the time you clear the machine and the next operator steps on the blade will of stopped this preventing someone inadvertently touching a spinning blade.
des,

I appreciate that, but it still doesn't prevent someone walking away without switching off the saw. The only thing that would control that is a photo-electric cell, that is broken the moment someone steps away from the machine. But of course it would have to be a very sensitive one-way PE cell, and the area about the machine would have to give room to work; all of which which is clearly impractical; so the 10 second brake in my humble, is just a get out clause for factory owners.

But I don't have to have one in my shop; yet! 8)
 

tomatwark

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Having a DC brake on certain machines makes a great deal of sense.

The blocks on a big tenoning machine will run for a long time time after the stop button is pressed.

Even having hand brakes is not fool proof as I found out one day when I thought I had stopped the blocks with hand brakes, and went to adjust them , I had not quite stopped them and the scribing cutter went through the end of my finger. ( this was my own fault for getting to complacent )

It was only spinning very slowly, but could have been a lot worse, but fully guarded you can not see the blocks well.

Not all machines have to stop within 10 seconds though, a RAS is one example, as long as the head retracts into a hood by using a counter weight or return spring it is find, as mine does.

That said if I ever employ anyone it will be DC braked anyway as for the few hundred quit it costs it is not worth not doing.

A lot of accidents are through lack of training or the operator getting to complacent.

I suspect that there are a lot more accidents with hobbists than in industry due to learning from books and American TV experts, but as they are not reportable to the HSE the figures are lost in the general A+E figures.

I am not having a go at the guys and girls who do this as a hobby by the way.

Tom
 

marcros

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training on machines, when used for a hobby is not common place. There is the odd thread on the forum about people having a day out with xyz, and I know that some of our members do do some training, but the vast majority of users have tought themsleves safe processes to a greater or lesser degree. It is not helped by the manuals for (eg) tablesaws, that at best tell you not to touch the blade, and typically leave you struggling to understand any of the thing because it is mainly for assembly.

I agree with what Tom has put above. Things like the Workshop Essentials DVD's, and there are no doubt others can only help the situation, and demonstrate safe practices at an amount affordable for all.
 

Benchwayze

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tomatwark":2d0a7ft0 said:
Having a DC brake on certain machines makes a great deal of sense.

The blocks on a big tenoning machine will run for a long time time after the stop button is pressed.

Even having hand brakes is not fool proof as I found out one day when I thought I had stopped the blocks with hand brakes, and went to adjust them , I had not quite stopped them and the scribing cutter went through the end of my finger. ( this was my own fault for getting to complacent )

It was only spinning very slowly, but could have been a lot worse, but fully guarded you can not see the blocks well.

Not all machines have to stop within 10 seconds though, a RAS is one example, as long as the head retracts into a hood by using a counter weight or return spring it is find, as mine does.

That said if I ever employ anyone it will be DC braked anyway as for the few hundred quit it costs it is not worth not doing.

A lot of accidents are through lack of training or the operator getting to complacent.

I suspect that there are a lot more accidents with hobbists than in industry due to learning from books and American TV experts, but as they are not reportable to the HSE the figures are lost in the general A+E figures.

I am not having a go at the guys and girls who do this as a hobby by the way.

Tom
Well I am thinking of giving it all up anyway. It's getting beyond me to lump big jobs around, and I can't see any personal satisfaction in repeated projects, such as little boxes, and miniature chests. So while I can still count with my fingers and toes, maybe I should quit while I am ahead.
 
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