Biomass power stations " good idea or not"

[sawdust1]

Talking with a timber haulier this week about the shortage of roadside timber and the way the prices are going, it turns out that nearly everything is going up to Kent to the Biomass power station that has
recently started operating.
They are taking everything including good hardwood saw logs, he said 700 tons is being burned every week. The timber merchants are paying me at the moment £65 per ton down to 16cm Diameter from £50 at the beginning of the year, the lorry loads going from my wood include some nice Douglas saw logs.
This is going to effect us all as the price to us end users will keep on rising, you probably have noticed
this already.
Looking at their web site they state we use "low grade timber from local woodlands" and "we are looking after the environment".
Complete rubbish as they are taking everything, from anywhere and screwing the environment.
And when they run out it will be imported from across the sea with the risk of bringing in more tree diseases.
I think burning wood to produce electricity when we haven't that much to start with is a crazy idea!
Rant over !

 

[Rorschach]

I'd rather they burn wood than coal or gas to be honest, at least it is carbon neutral. They need a more sensible source though.

 

[thetyreman]

I'm not a fan of it, seems like the worst of several ideas combined, it's going to have dire longterm consequences, I actually wonder if there will be any nature left in 50-100 years? we can't keep doing this to the planet.

 

[RogerS]

I'd rather they burn wood than coal or gas to be honest, at least it is carbon neutral. They need a more sensible source though.

mod edit . How long do you think these trees take to grow ? And who is actually planting the new trees ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41551296

sawdust1 is bang on the money.

I have no idea where you live but I'm right up here amongst the standing timber and the local fencing suppliers etc are tearing their hair out because all the good stuff is being burnt.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/busin ... ion-438765

Makes sense to me, although of course it's small scale in the greater scheme of things. Maybe every area should have one? Sorts out the supposedly unrecyclable plastics problem. Why we need the French to build and run it is beyond me, though.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My friend's son in law was very high up in one of the huge mining companies. Several years ago he was working in China commissioning a huge new coal mine ............ the coal from which was to be burned in a power plant to fuel massive factories making low energy light bulbs for the West.

 

[finneyb]

Drax gets served with biomass from Liverpool docks - it comes from US I think, purpose built train about 25 wagons - there is at least two of them running.

Brian

 

[Beau]

NOT!

The whole biomass idea is way out of hand at present. Watching prices of roundwood down here in the SW rocket as it's all being shipped to Kent. Small scale, local and sustainable biomass sure but what's happening is totally unsustainable. Stuff all tree being planted as well. This is the place ours is going to http://www.estover.co.uk/news-1/2016/9/ ... -park-kent

 

[julianf]

Biomass is in its infancy.

Certainly there's some crazy stuff going on at present, but id like to think it will be short(ish) term, and, after a while, things will settle down.

If you want a comparison, the nuclear industry didnt even care about generating electricity for decades and decades - so can you really expect biomass to be 100% sorted overnight?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We're entitled to see a load of tree planting sorted out pretty bloody quickly.

 

[Chrispy]

And why can't I find anyone to take waste wood/ sawdust for biomass, instead I have to pay for skips and have it go to landfill.
Crazy.

 

[julianf]

And why can't I find anyone to take waste wood/ sawdust for biomass, instead I have to pay for skips and have it go to landfill.
Crazy.

I used to pick up sawdust from a local place in dumpy bags in a trailer, and was set up for burning it.

Just due to time / distance etc. i stopped doing it, but if someone was generating a load of (non-mdf) sawdust next door, id happily take it again.

If youre generating a load, and its virgin, maybe consider a pellet mill?

 

[Rorschach]

I'd rather they burn wood than coal or gas to be honest, at least it is carbon neutral. They need a more sensible source though.

mod edit . How long do you think these trees take to grow ? And who is actually planting the new trees ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41551296

sawdust1 is bang on the money.

I have no idea where you live but I'm right up here amongst the standing timber and the local fencing suppliers etc are tearing their hair out because all the good stuff is being burnt.

Thanks to the mods there for the edit of what I thought was a very inappropriate comment.

You will notice I said "better sources" precisely because before firing up any biomass power station you need a sustainable source of fast growing wood suitable for burning. I was agreeing with you and the OP.

 

[Rhyolith]

The biomass tech is sound, its the way its used thats the problem. Its been said repeatedly that there simply is not the land avialable to sustain biomass plants as a LARGE SCALE solution. Its much more suited to powering indivdaul intuitions on a small scale (like a uni campus or office building). So the amount of fuel needed is less obscene.

As usaul its probably been built to tick the “Its green” box and has not been thought through... or even researched for that matter, as thr issue above is well known and has been for while.

 

[Beau]

This is my understanding on the Kent plant. Very second hand info so take it with a pinch of salt

It was designed to use local coppice and there is fair amount near by. Apparently one of the problems is the big harvesting operations have such a bad reputation for wrecking the sites with massive machinery the local woodland owners wont let them harvest from them so it's get shipped halfway across the country instead.

 

[doctor Bob]

I heard on radio 4, we now have twice as much forest compared to the beginning of the 20th century. About 10% coverage with this growing to 12% within 30 years. The biggest problem is no one is planting hardwood forests as it takes 80-100 years to profit from them.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

https://www.heartofenglandforest.com/

Thank Felix Dennis.

 

[heimlaga]

In my oppinion burning biomass makes very environmentally friendly energy provided that the fuel is local and grown and harvested and transported in a sustainable way.
Low grade firewood is surprisingly bulky for it's energy content so I don't think it should be transported much further than 50 kilometres over land or 100-150 kilometres by ship.

If the wood is transported far by fossil powered vehicles you very soon will be burning transformed fossil fuel. The same or even a greater amount of fossil fuel has been burned harvesting and transporting and prosessing the wood as you get out of it. The only difference from an oil fired powerpland is that you can market it as "green" and get government support for your "green energy".


Therefore the ideal form of biomass power is when ordinary local people own a bit of woodland just outside their village or small town and manage it in a way that produces sawlogs for timber and firewood to heat their own homes and maybe the home of a neighbour or two.
This concept is also very much in line with my principle of putting the means of production in the hands of the people and outside the control of big business. Thereby creating a base for a stable democratic society.
We get rougly a 1:10 ratio between diesel fuel and petrol spent retrieving our own firewood and the heating oil we don't ned to burn because we have firewood. Not quite "renewable energy" but pretty close.

 

[julianf]

I should note that biomass is not just about burning wood.

For example anaerobic digestion running off supermarket waste is also an interesting concept, all be it, also in "somewhat dubious" mode at present, with fields of maize being grown simply to feed to the reactors.

My own car is about 87.5% biomass propelled. The other 12.5% comes from North sea oil derived methanol, as I need the smaller alcohol molecule as a substitute in the transesterification reaction.

Government removed the tax benefit from using virgin oil some years into the "biodiesel" time line, as I hope they will, in time, do so for some of the other generation pathways.

They are far from perfect at present, but, again, you have to expect these things to take time. If you're not prepared for some development cycle, then you never have any chance of changing pathway.

 

[RogerS]

In my oppinion burning biomass makes very environmentally friendly energy provided that the fuel is local and grown and harvested and transported in a sustainable way.
Low grade firewood is surprisingly bulky for it's energy content so I don't think it should be transported much further than 50 kilometres over land or 100-150 kilometres by ship.

If the wood is transported far by fossil powered vehicles you very soon will be burning transformed fossil fuel. The same or even a greater amount of fossil fuel has been burned harvesting and transporting and prosessing the wood as you get out of it. The only difference from an oil fired powerpland is that you can market it as "green" and get government support for your "green energy".


Therefore the ideal form of biomass power is when ordinary local people own a bit of woodland just outside their village or small town and manage it in a way that produces sawlogs for timber and firewood to heat their own homes and maybe the home of a neighbour or two.
This concept is also very much in line with my principle of putting the means of production in the hands of the people and outside the control of big business. Thereby creating a base for a stable democratic society.
We get rougly a 1:10 ratio between diesel fuel and petrol spent retrieving our own firewood and the heating oil we don't ned to burn because we have firewood. Not quite "renewable energy" but pretty close.

You are very fortunate living where you do as your countries demographics very much lend themselves to your goal.

Finland ....comparable land area to the UK.

Finland ..population5.5 million. UK...66 million.

Finland ..percentage land area that is forested (in the broadest possible sense) 73%. The UK is 13%