Ban the Burka ?

[Max Power]

In light of the recent French vote to ban the burka an aol poll with 15000
votes so far shows that 87% would welcome a similar decision in this country.
Anyone got any thoughts on this?

 

[Karl]

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Yes - I can't see this thread staying open for long :roll:

 

[matt]

I don't quite see how people can be told what not to wear. Strikes me this is venturing in to dangerous grounds. It some ways it implies that everyone is guilty of something because wearing something that conceals the face is to hide identity rather than, say, to keep warm (balaclava).

I can see why some establishments, such as banks, may request that people remove crash helmets etc but as a general rule it seems quite amazing to me.

What if I wore a transparent boiler suit? I'm not concealing my identity but am I guilty of committing a crime where I'm attempting to not leave any DNA?

I'm not even banging on about human rights etc - it just seems like something out of 1984, Brazil, etc.

 

[matt]

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Yes - I can't see this thread staying open for long :roll:

That was my initial reaction but, IMO, it's not overly political (yet). I'm curious about opinions on this one.

Another thought crossed my mind... One day will we all have to keep talking in our native accent so we can recognise potentially guilty Caucasians? If, for example, the Irish troubles kicked off, you could be concealing your Irish identity because you're not speaking.

FWIW - I'm fully open to having my views on this shifted through an informative and educational thread.

 

[Niles Crane]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

 

[matt]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

Kinda my point entirely.

 

[matt]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

Kinda my point entirely. Imagine if you had, however, been forced to talk all the time when out in public?

I do kinda get what the authorities are pursuing here but I think it's one of those things where reality has taken a rain-check.

 

[Argee]

There are probably three elements within this subject, diversity, integration and religion, all of which can be minefields in their own right. Britain claims to be "multi-cultural," but that may confuse the issue as I'm sure that many still believe that those whose culture differs should "fit in" in the UK by adopting our culture (whatever that's conceived to be).

Britain tries to be diverse, but there are factions to whom this is abhorrent. No amount of education, etc. will alter viewpoints held that deeply, for whatever reason.

Integration is considered in different ways by different interest groups. There are those who decry the increase of, for example, delicatessens catering to particular nationalities, yet have no problem with "English Pubs" in other countries. Most seem to agree that our laws should be observed by our visitors and foreign nationals now resident, which seems sensible enough.

Religion, by itself, is the most inflammatory of subjects and always will be. The fact that it can and does impinge upon culture, diversity and the law makes it so.

Now take an issue which combines all three and try to rationalise it - very difficult indeed! What another country has chosen to do is hardly relevant in the long term, unless it causes major upheaval. I think it's a little early to predict the outcome yet, but I also imagine that the topic will fade quite swiftly too, until someone takes a stand in a French court.

Ray

 

[Dibs-h]

No amount of education, etc. will alter viewpoints held that deeply, for whatever reason.

Sad really.

 

[Mr T]

Hi

I don't really understand why the French have done this. Is it becaue they think the burka infringes women's rights or because it goes against the idea of the secular state or is it just xenophobia.

Banning the burka infringes the rights of women who wish to wear it, a ban on wearing the burka in government buildings would have satisfied the seular state arguement. That just leaves xenophobia unless I have missed something

I think part of the problem is that we in the West do not know enough about Islam, we get the one sided view from the Daily Mail and Express, but we don't really understand Islam. This is partly the fault of Muslims themselves in not educating us about true Islam. Most muslims are good people like you and I am sure there are plenty of stories about good things that Muslim people have done, but we never see these in the media.

So my vote Alan is to keep the burka and seek understanding.

Chris

 

[WoodAddict]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

I agree entirely. Yet shopping centres ban people wearing "hoodies" because everybody who wears one is obviously in there to mug people and nick from the shops! Pubs ban people wearing baseball caps because the cameras cannot see their faces, yet because the Burka is symbolic of religion, we have to dodge the subject and ask questions such as this thread.

I personally would say yes - ban the burka. But this is of course my personal thought, nobody is right or wrong here and even if a law was passed either way there would still be an on-going argument and those that wear a burka would not stop doing so. After-all what can the authorities physically do to stop them?

 

[matt]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

I agree entirely. Yet shopping centres ban people wearing "hoodies" because everybody who wears one is obviously in there to mug people and nick from the shops! Pubs ban people wearing baseball caps because the cameras cannot see their faces, yet because the Burka is symbolic of religion, we have to dodge the subject and ask questions such as this thread?

I've read and re-read your comment but can't quite work out what subject is being dodged? And why you think the thread exists because of the religious association?

As already mentioned, I don't have a problem with establishments making use of their facilities conditional on the ability for them to be able to identify people's faces. A blanket ban on burkas seems to step way beyond that.

 

[WoodAddict]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

I agree entirely. Yet shopping centres ban people wearing "hoodies" because everybody who wears one is obviously in there to mug people and nick from the shops! Pubs ban people wearing baseball caps because the cameras cannot see their faces, yet because the Burka is symbolic of religion, we have to dodge the subject and ask questions such as this thread?

I've read and re-read your comment but can't quite work out what subject is being dodged? And why you think the thread exists because of the religious association?

As already mentioned, I don't have a problem with establishments making use of their facilities conditional on the ability for them to be able to identify people's faces. A blanket ban on burkas seems to step way beyond that.

sorry, maybe I wasn't clear on what I was trying to get across,

"Hoodies" are banned from shopping centres - no questions asked!
Baseball caps banned from pubs - no questions asked!
Should the burka be banned? - all of a sudden there's a difficult question because of the religious aspect.

As you rightly say above, establishments should have the right to ban it on their premises (such as shopping centres and pubs etc.....) but they wont through fear of being accused of racism or similar.

As I said before, this is just my view and I don't believe that anybody is right or wrong in any opinion.

 

[Peter T]

I was in our local Sainsbury petrol station recently waiting to pay. The customer at the till was a lady wearing some sort of veil over her face. The next customer in line was a motorcyclist wearing his crash helmet.

The cashier asked him, politely, to remove his helmet and pointed to a sign which requested motorcyclists to remove helmets so that the CCTV could record them (my wording not theirs).

The motorcyclist asked why he should remove his helmet. The cashier explained that they wanted to record customers faces on the CCTV.

The motorcyclist then asked, politely, how they had managed to record the face of the previous customer, the one with the veil.

Nothing more was said on the subject..................... and he kept his helmet on.

Rules should apply to everyone equally or not at all.

 

[kasandrich]

I was in our local Sainsbury petrol station recently waiting to pay. The customer at the till was a lady wearing some sort of veil over her face. The next customer in line was a motorcyclist wearing his crash helmet.

The cashier asked him, politely, to remove his helmet and pointed to a sign which requested motorcyclists to remove helmets so that the CCTV could record them (my wording not theirs).

The motorcyclist asked why he should remove his helmet. The cashier explained that they wanted to record customers faces on the CCTV.

The motorcyclist then asked, politely, how they had managed to record the face of the previous customer, the one with the veil.

Nothing more was said on the subject..................... and he kept his helmet on.

Rules should apply to everyone equally or not at all.

.....HERE HERE!!!

Any law should apply to all, whether it be hoody, crash helmet or Burka, religion doesn't come into it. We either do need to be able to identify people or we do not.

Motorcyclists wear a helmet for legal reasons, and I can tell you that once you get yourself all tucked in and comfortable the last thing you need is to be told to take your helmet off. It is far easier to remove a veil than a helmet.

I have heard of a motorcyclist being asked to remove his helmet, when he did it revealed a full balaclava! he politely pointed out there were no signs asking for Balaclavas to be removed :lol:

 

[studders]

.....

Rules should apply to everyone equally or not at all.

I sort of agree with that but.... some allowances may have to be made for various reasons.
Sikhs, I seem to recall, were given the right not to wear a Crash Helmet when they became compulsory for everyone else. It caused a bit of a problem at the time from those, non Sikhs, who didn't wear a helmet and didn't want to.
It could be argued that the Law of this Country says Crash Helmets are Compulsory so, if your Religious Dress means you can't comply then you don't get to ride a Motorbike.
With regard to the Burka, compromise has to work both ways. No, they should not be banned, or if they are then ban chav shell suits and Burberry too, but, in cases where identification is required, the wearer should not object to removing it when required for that purpose.

 

[Dibs-h]

The motorcyclist then asked, politely, how they had managed to record the face of the previous customer, the one with the veil.

Nothing more was said on the subject..................... and he kept his helmet on.

Rules should apply to everyone equally or not at all.

Yes a bit odd isn't it and it needs to be dealt with - equal, transparent and seen to be so.

I think the time will arrive when a woman will not be able to walk into a bank\post office\Govt Office (or even drive) with her face veiled & to be honest whilst some could label it as an erosion of liberties, heavy handed, etc. but I would welcome it, although I entirely understand and agree that telling women what they can or can't wear isn't a clever idea and I'm certainly not in favour of any type of knee jerk blanket bans on anything.

 

[Blister]

I will through my 2p worth in to the pot

If other race people chose to live in our country , am I allowed to say that as I am " white other " according to my local library :roll:

Why do they not adopt white other ways ?

If they want to live by there strict rules go back to the homeland , then we are all happy

Regarding the library , I was going to join , as you do

Went to fill in the forms to get a woodworking book and it went like this

African
Asian
Indian
Muslim

White other


I said I think you have given me the wrong form to fill in as it does not say
British or English ?

NO NO said the lady it the correct form , just tick the White Other box :shock:

At that point I told her that the forms needed re doing and left without filling in the form :evil:

 

[TEO]

If other race people chose to live in our country , am I allowed to say that as I am " white other " according to my local library :roll:

Why do they not adopt white other ways ?

If they want to live by there strict rules go back to the homeland , then we are all happy

I wouldn't be happy Allen,

I enjoy living in a country where tolerance, free speech and the freedom to practice one's religion are an everyday part of life,

The expression of different opinions is one of the freedoms that we enjoy, and I celebrate your right to express an opinion. I just don't agree.

To be English or British is not dependant on how you dress or what religion you practice, nor what colour you or your parents, grandparents etc. are.

T

 

[matt]

I'm sure I'm taking this the wrong way, but I lived in Manchester during the 'Irish troubles' and didn't bother to hide my accent.
Maybe it's exactly your point, but not everyone with an Irish accent is involved with that kind of thing, nor tarnished with the same brush.
It's a small group of thugs that the vast majority of the country want nothing to do with.

My sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.

I agree entirely. Yet shopping centres ban people wearing "hoodies" because everybody who wears one is obviously in there to mug people and nick from the shops! Pubs ban people wearing baseball caps because the cameras cannot see their faces, yet because the Burka is symbolic of religion, we have to dodge the subject and ask questions such as this thread?

I've read and re-read your comment but can't quite work out what subject is being dodged? And why you think the thread exists because of the religious association?

As already mentioned, I don't have a problem with establishments making use of their facilities conditional on the ability for them to be able to identify people's faces. A blanket ban on burkas seems to step way beyond that.

sorry, maybe I wasn't clear on what I was trying to get across,

"Hoodies" are banned from shopping centres - no questions asked!
Baseball caps banned from pubs - no questions asked!
Should the burka be banned? - all of a sudden there's a difficult question because of the religious aspect.

As you rightly say above, establishments should have the right to ban it on their premises (such as shopping centres and pubs etc.....) but they wont through fear of being accused of racism or similar.

As I said before, this is just my view and I don't believe that anybody is right or wrong in any opinion.

Hoodies and baseball caps have not been banned for the whole country though. If they were then I think more of a fuss would be made.