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Baby Wadkin Bursgreen in California: Advice on an AGS10

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KT_NorCal

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Hi All,
I'm from over in the States and this is my first post here although I've been reading through some old threads plus using the search function for several weeks trying to gather as much background info as possible on an AGS10 I recently purchased as well as a WB BER2 I picked up several months ago.

The AGS I just picked up is a 79 that was purchased new out here in California. I'm the second owner which I think is cool. The previous owner was a private business that made lighting fixtures from California Redwood and this was just one of several Wadkin Bursgreen saws they had bought. One of the other ones is a crazy scary looking gang-rip saw (or "multi-rip" BSW I think it was called) with seven or eight very large blades on it... and a 40HP electric motor... this AGS was at the other end of the scale!

I have been on the lookout for a BGS 10 or maybe 12 for a while, but suspect they were never imported to the States and had basically given up hope of finding one when this popped up, so I grabbed it as a consolation prize. It seems to be a fantastic saw. Went and picked it up the same day the fires started here in Northern California with all the extreme winds, so towing it back home was an interesting experience. It is relatively complete with only a few bits missing.. one of which is the dust extraction hood which the PO thinks he might have been guilty of tossing as they closed the business given its rather strange non-dust hood shape. It has sat for many years essentially unused, so will need to be taken apart cleaned and put back together again. Did some light cleaning of the top as it was covered in a thin coat of "barn rust" from sitting around for so long, but that is it so far.

Only thing that definitely is wrong (as far as I can tell) is that the 10" blades don't fully retract as it is currently, but I think I see two set/limit screws on the trunnion that might be the guilty parties. Also there is an extreme amount of lash on the raise/lower gear/handle, so will need to figure that out too. The arbor nut also has gone on a walk-about, which is a bummer, since I'm rather sure the arbor is a 5/8" BSW left hand thread... which means I will definitely not be picking one up somewhere locally. The upside is that I apparently have the rather rare dado arbor nut, because that is what seems to be clamping in the blade that was on the saw.

Biggest bummer is that I had thought all WBs after an early 70s date came with riving knives... turns out at least the US market ones all came with a "US spec" blade guard that made riving knives unusable (fantastic safety logic, that), so this one has what is really a splitter... which bums me out significantly. I'm hoping some members here who have one of these can tell if it is something that can be retrofitted as it looks like the trunnion has all the appropriate holes to use a riving knife, it just doesn't have one.

First couple of surprising observations after spending only an hour or two with it... It was almost comically heavy for a 10" table saw... I have a Unisaw and I swear it feels close to double the weight. If I hadn't brought a drop-deck trailer the move probably wouldn't have happened that day. Secondly, the fence seems to be really, really nice. Doesn't seem that sophisticated, but is rock steady and extremely easy to use (even with rusty internals and guide bar (which turned out to be solid steel and almost dropped on my leg.. see previous comment on it being a silly heavy saw).

I attached a few pics below and then will post some of the questions I come up with as I go along. The main one will be regarding possibly retrofitting a riving knife, but also would be interested in seeting any pictures members here have of the "exaust hood" (part D-1026/355) as I will defintiely try and fab one up soon.

Thank you!
 

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misterfish

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Hi and welcome to the forum.

Previously there have been questions about the riving knife and blade guard as well as the mechanism for holding the assembly allowing itro rise and fall with the blade.

I suggest you look back at the following posts that may give you a lot of useful info about the components as well as measurements I took from my machine.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post589648.html?hilit=wadkin#p589648

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post1130889.html?hilit=wadkin#p1130889

and

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/wadkin-ags-10-riving-knife-t84071.html

On my saw the 10" blade retracts below the table, but with a 12" blade it doesn't (no surprise there). I haven't needed to make any adjustments so can't help with that.

I get some lash - not too bad to annoy me. I just lower the blade and then crank it up to the required blade height.

I have the same fence and totally agree with you solid and easily adjusted to be parallel with the blade.

As for the weight it is about 250Kg (550 pounds) so it is indeed solid!

I've never looked at the inner blade dust shield. I'll have a look next time I'm in the workshop and let you know what it's like.

I hope you've not been affected by the horrendous wildfires - just feel so sorry for those affected.

Regards

Jeff (aka Misterfis)
 

KT_NorCal

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Hi Jeff,
Nice to meet you and thanks for the links, I had found one of those but had not seen the others. After looking at the different threads you suggested, I'm relatively certain this AGS is set up for that later "parallelogram" riving knife attachment. Apparently it was just never used due to the "US spec" guard that was shipped on it. Hopefully I will be able to find spares somewhere. If you have any suggestions of where to dig around I would be glad to hear... all I can think of is maybe tool dealers who deal in these kind of saws and may have a parts machine or two lying around.

I also think I've isolated the probable problem of the lash.. in this case it was extreme in that the hand wheel would rotate more than a full revolution befor engaging one way or another... I've attached a couple pics of the shaft and it looks like it is pulling out of its seating by a few MM before engaging. I'm hoping this is something that is just out of ajustment, but guess I will find out once I diassasemble it ia bit. Someone has clearly marked an "x" on the shaft at some point in the past to probably confirm the same problem, so I have a feeling it has been like this for a while on top of sitting for over 10 years pretty much unused.

I'll definitely have a few more questions about the fence and aligning it properly once I get to that point as the manual isn't hugely helpful.

I would defintiely be interested to see any internal dust managment as, at least on mine, it seems to be minimal to none. The dust extraction hood that is missing on this one for sure is the one that sits at the bottom of the motor cover... it's definitely an oddball shape as it was as wide as the cabinet, but only about an inch to two inches in height. The drawing in the manual is zero help, but at least it did give the part number. I turned up big zeros looking for that online, so not sure if it was just another US specal mod.

One question that just came up... Can you confirm if the arbor threads on these saws are BSW 5/8 11 TPI left hand thread? I read a couple threads here and there was more than one suggestion that it was a 12 TPI thread... which would make it a real oddball. Want to find an arbor nut for it at some point...

No problems here with the fires. Know some people who were affected though so is very sad. The problem was that the winds that day were gale force combined with warm dry conditions and it got out of control very quickly. It doesn't rain in the summer here in CA so they came at the end of the dry season. Where I picked up the saw was 100 miles from the area where the fire was and it looked like what I theorize a nuclear winter might be like.. the smoke was so dense you could barely see the sun.

Thanks again for the help!
Kevin
 

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MusicMan

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Hi and welcome from another AGS user.

Your question on the arbor nut. It is definitely not 5/8 BSW 11 tpi . It is a 5/8" square-form left hand thread, 12 tpi. This picture shows it quite well against a steel rule:

Wadkin AGS arbor thread - 3.jpg


This one shows it against an 11 tpi gauge, which is showing that it is definitely not 11 tpi:

Wadkin AGS arbor thread - 1.jpg


I don't think you can possibly buy one of these except maybe from a scrap saw. A machinist could make one, at a price. I'd carry on with your dado arbor screw.

Keith
 

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julianf

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My earlier saw does not have this bit -



My later one does. I'd imagine that yours is supposed to, but I cant be sure without looking at all there again!
 

MusicMan

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That's part of the parallelogram mechanism for making the riving knife rise and fall with the blade. My saw is early and does not have that. It just has two studs for affixing the riving knife, as shown in the OP's second picture. It's much more convenient to have the RK moving with the blade, but it can be adjusted manually to the same effect.
 

KT_NorCal

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MusicMan":3is1dcy2 said:
Hi and welcome from another AGS user.

Your question on the arbor nut. It is definitely not 5/8 BSW 11 tpi . It is a 5/8" square-form left hand thread, 12 tpi. This picture shows it quite well against a steel rule:

I don't think you can possibly buy one of these except maybe from a scrap saw. A machinist could make one, at a price. I'd carry on with your dado arbor screw.

Keith
Hi Keith,
Ah, of course it would be 12 tpi… why make things easy? :)

Does this thread even have a name? The Delta Unisaw has a bit of an oddball 12 tpi as well, but at least it is an acme thread.

The dado nut is prob fine for now, I just ultimately would like to find an arbor nut.
Thanks for the help with this!
Kevin
 

KT_NorCal

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julianf":l8do01gw said:
My earlier saw does not have this bit -

My later one does. I'd imagine that yours is supposed to, but I cant be sure without looking at all there again!
Hi Julian,
I think that bit is from a bit earlier than the parallelogram design... Based on what I've seen it seems to be the solution used between the type on the earlier saws (and my US spec later one) and the later saws which had a completely different design that mounted around the arbor... I found a picture of that later design on the web from a very nice restore job someone did and it shows the full parallelogram set up (the picture is from a AGS 12, but they are essentially the same design).

Do you know what is coming on you AGS 250 top half?

Kevin
 

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misterfish

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Hi Kevin

My saw is actually a BTR10 - basically an AGS10 but with a sliding table in place of the left hand table extension. It spent most of its life in a school woodwork shop.



The sliding table attachmet took up too much space and is currently removed and replaced with a home made table wing.

From what I have been able to find out there are lots of versions with assorted variations. The school version like mine is all metric with 20mm arbor, 20 mm mitre slot and metric bolts. As far as I know the 5/8 arbor and 3/4 mitre slot are 'normal'.

When I got my saw I contacted Wadkin and they sent me the instructions www.drosera.f2s.com/ags10old.pdf which gave me some useful information and subsequently I have collected other AGS manuals which cover different aspects of the various saws sold in more or less detail but are worth looking at as they can clarify some details and give some good parts diagrams. The others that I have are
www.drosera.f2s.com/ags10.pdf
www.drosera.f2s.com/ags12.pdf
www.drosera.f2s.com/ags14.pdf
www.drosera.f2s.com/ags250-300.pdf
and
www.drosera.f2s.com/agsp1.pdf

In the old manual most of the threads are Whitworth so they may have that for the arbor.

I'll try and get some pictures of the internal dust shield if I can - one of the parts diagrams shows more details that may be like yours.

Jeff
 

KT_NorCal

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Hi Jeff,
Wow, those are fantastic. Thank you. I'll read though them tomorrow. I will also scan the manual that came with my saw and send it over in case that helps anyone. It is a bit rumpled/dirty, but it should scan ok.

My manual shows the 20mm arbor as an option and gives a separate option for a 25mm one as well. The specs in the front of this manual say it is a 5/8th inch saw arbor though and it just occurred to me that I didn't bother to put a caliper on it. I should probably actually measure it so I'm sure of what I have so will do that tomorrow. The mitre slots must be 20.something mm though as I put my calipers on the mitre bar (which is sitting in a citric acid solution at the moment being de-rusted) and it came out at 19.95mm.

Also, randomly the saw came with a pristine manual for a "20" BSW Circular Sawbench" and the engineering drawing for the BSS/FD dated 1966. If you think that might be of interest to folks here I'm happy to scan that as well.

Kevin


PS: should add, your saw looks great and the sliding table is neat, It gives that option in this manual as well, so I'm guessing our saws are pretty similar on the inside as well.
 

misterfish

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Thanks for that Kevin. I'd appreciate copies of any manuals/documents you've got.

I think you mentioned obtaining parts. From time to time things get listed on on UK eBay. Also maybe Wallace could have some ideas. He does fantastic renovations of Wadkin kit and has posted loads of WIP threads on this forum.

Jeff
 

MusicMan

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Mine is as described in the manual that mister fish just posted (no sliding table). I agree that they came in many variants/developments. Mine is pretty rigorously Imperial threads throughout, mostly BSW. The arbor nut of course is a special left hand thread. I don't believe the Whitworth profile was ever used on such saws. Whether Imperial or metric, it would be either a square thread (which needs no further definition other than pitch and diameter) or ACME or Buttress form. Mine is square as seen in the pics.

Always happy to collect information on these saws! I have not done a complete rebuild, but am always thrilled by the quality of the cut. It is worth getting good blades. I have a combination blade that I leave on most of the time. For best quality cutting I use a Freud thin kerf ripping blade for ripping and an 80 tooth (I think also Freud) for crosscutting.

It is worth checking the zero on the mitre gauge. It's adjustable;e and mine was significant out when it came.

Keith
 

KT_NorCal

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MusicMan":hfgub358 said:
Hi and welcome from another AGS user.

Your question on the arbor nut. It is definitely not 5/8 BSW 11 tpi . It is a 5/8" square-form left hand thread, 12 tpi. This picture shows it quite well against a steel rule:
Well, I did confirm it was a 5/8th arbor and you are correct about the thread... definitely a square thread although mine is a bit beat up towards the end so it is partially round-ish now. :)

20181125_155209 (Medium).jpg



As far as the mitre gauge goes I'll double check it... it is a bit cheap looking to be honest and pretty sure the top is aluminum. It is one of those ones with a spring loaded stop for detents at 90 and 45... not sure how much precision is there to be got tbh... I'll post a pic once it get it back together... all in pieces at the moment being cleaned up. From the miter slots on the machine still being painted though I'm pretty sure they didn't use it much previously.
Kevin
 

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misterfish

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Hi Kevin

Just back from the workshop and have looked at the dust shield. The following may be of help.

It is not a sophisticated component but engineered to perform its function. It is made from a piece of folded steel about 0.07 inches thick.










Hopefully this should be enough to let you make a suitable replacement.

Jeff
 

KT_NorCal

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Hi Jeff,
Thank you for the pictures! It looks like I have that bit and if this is the only piece inside the cabinet I should be good to go... I thought there might be something more extensive than that, but some of the saws I've seen online might have had owner made bits on them. The part I'm definitely missing is the one that connects to the cabinet below the motor mount. It is a very odd shape for a dust port and I haven't even been able to find a picture of it online so will just try to make something up for it.


20181125_161123 (Medium).jpg
 

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KT_NorCal

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I didn't make any progress on the lash issue yesterday, but figured out exactly what is up with the blade not dropping fully below the table... It turns out another person a few years ago on a different forum had had the same exact problem and solved it by adjusting the arbor limit screws... Apparently the one that limits the upper limit of the blade also, when set to allow full blade extension, blocs the arbor from dropping all the way down. He solved it by removing the screw and cutting it down a bit and replacing it.

My question is that there is no way I can imagine Wadkin Bursgreen would have shipped a saw that you couldn't drop the blade all the way down on (or at least, I should say, wouldn't have shipped a saw *design*… whether there was some Friday afternoon engineering going on and someone just put a wrong screw in there is another question) and it sounds like most of you never had this problem, so is there something else that I might be missing? What the guy described is definitely true as you can see from the picture of my saw, but I can't imagine that is the only thing...

20181125_161633 1 (Medium).jpg


20181125_161329 (Medium).jpg


Also the guy described in his post another problem he was having where the arbor didn't come down smoothly and would sort of bind and drop... apparently that was fixed with a thorough cleaning and adjustment, so another reason I should get on with taking this apart...

Kevin
 

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misterfish

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The dust pjust made ort on mine is the same as yours. I just made a plywood adapter with a 100mm dust port to fit against the side of the saw and that seems to work OK.



Jeff
 

KT_NorCal

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That is probably where I'll end up. It must be a rare option as I definitely have not been able to find any pictures of the factory one...
 

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MusicMan":wnn0dzwk said:
I don't think you can possibly buy one of these except maybe from a scrap saw. A machinist could make one, at a price. I'd carry on with your dado arbor screw.

Keith
So, this may potentially cause an international incident or at a minimum freak a few people out, but here goes....

Here in a Delta Unisaw arbor and arbor nut....
20181127_012253.jpg


And here is a Delta Unisaw arbor nut on a AGS 10 arbor...
20181127_012135.jpg


So, AGS 10 arbor nut sourcing is henceforth solved? :)

Maybe. I didn't gorilla it down or anything, so not 100 percent sure, but it spun completly freely all the way down to the bottom of the thread. I'll play with it more later this week when I have some free time..

Kevin

PS: my supply of random luck may have been used up for the week.
 

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MusicMan

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I am not sure that there ever was a Wadkin dust port for the cabinet! All the ones I have seen have been user made. Mine has a motor cover that is clearly user made and I am working towards putting a port beneath it and a ramp inside the saw to guid the dust down to it.

Axminster do ports in various sizes and shapes that should be usable.

Keith
 
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