Another saw makeover - advice please - now done.

[baldpate]

Hi everybody,

a while ago you gave me much valuable advice on re-toothing an old dovetail saw, back in this thread:
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/life-after-death-for-my-back-saw-t54710.html.

I'm now considering reworking another saw, this time a 22" handsaw which I bought some time in the 90s, I think, but which has languished in the discard pile for some years. It's made by Sandvik, and you can see it in all its plastic-handled glory here:

My intention is to remake it as a small ripsaw (same tpi, maybe 5° rake); I would have considered this fairly straightforward were it not for the current profile of the teeth. Instead of the normal 60° internal angle in the gullet, it seems to be more like 45°, and the side-on profile is more or less symmetrical forwards and back - see this close-up:

So, my question is how to set about this. There seem to be two possibilities:
a) I could grind off all the existing teeth and start from scratch. Given that my previous attempt at starting from scratch (earlier thread, linked above) was such a nightmare, I'm a bit reluctant to go this route ... but I'll do it if it's the right way.
b) Instead, would it be possible to progressively re-shape the existing tooth profile to that required? It seems to be a rather radical change of shape. Would this be easier than (a), though?

Which approach would you take? If (b), any particular tips? Or some other approach entirely?

(PS: I discount the possibility of re-sharpening the saw retaining the current tooth profile - I think I would need different files and techniques to do this, neither of which I'm prepared to acquire).

Thanks for any advice you can offer

Chris

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Chris - By a strange coincidence, I'm planning to do something similar myself. I've wanted a small rip panel saw for some time, but I balk a bit at the £200 for a new LN, though I don't doubt that they're every bit as good as most LN products. So I thought I'd have a go at making my own from an Ebay clunker. Duly bought the 22" x 10tpi saw (£6-50 inc. p&p), and once I'd got the handle off and cleaned up the blade, found I've got a Spear and Jackson Spearior 88. I have to get a couple of kinks out of the blade, which is tomorrow's challenge. If that works, here's how I plan to refile it from crosscut to rip.

First - make a saw vice. Then:

Step 1 - joint the toothline (it's not straight anyway, so needs it) to the point where most of the teeth have gone, and there's just a 'witness' where the bottom of the gullet was. I want it 10tpi rip, so want to maintain the existing spacing.

Step 2 - shape the new teeth.

(Steps 1 and 2 may be a several-stage process, because I don't want to file away all the old tooth on parts of the toothline, but will have to in order to straighten things up. So I'll joint, shape, joint again, shape again and so on until I've got even new teeth and a straight toothline. Might even go for a hint of breasting if things go well.)

Step 3 - once I've got the new teeth shaped nice and even, put the set on them. I'll try minimal set to start with, on the grounds that I can always increase it a bit if the saw binds. (Edit to add - I'll make a note of which way the end teeth are currently set, and set the new ones the same way, to prevent any possibility of bending metal in the opposite direction to which it has already been bent. Won't be a problem at one end because the jointing will take out all the existing set metal, but may be in the present low points.)

Step 4 - a very light final sharpen.

Now that's the plan - I've never done this before, so things may change. However, on the grounds that all I can lose is £6-50 and a bit of time (against which I'm bound to gain a bit of experience even if it ends up as scrap), I might as well go for it. So I can't say whether that's a good plan or not yet, but I'll report back if it works out. If you hear nothing, assume that a scrappie has gained the remains of a former panel saw....

 

[pedder]

H
So, my question is how to set about this. There seem to be two possibilities:
a) I could grind off all the existing teeth and start from scratch. Given that my previous attempt at starting from scratch (earlier thread, linked above) was such a nightmare, I'm a bit reluctant to go this route ... but I'll do it if it's the right way.
b) Instead, would it be possible to progressively re-shape the existing tooth profile to that required? It seems to be a rather radical change of shape. Would this be easier than (a), though?

Hi Chris,

first of all check, if the teeth are not hardened. If they are, you'd need to aneal them or grind them away.

I Would file down 3/4 of the teeth and use the gullets to create new teeth with the rake you wish.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[baldpate]

...first of all check, if the teeth are not hardened.

No, it's not a hardpoint saw - real steel all the way !

...I Would file down 3/4 of the teeth and use the gullets to create new teeth with the rake you wish.

Thanks Pedder - that's a great idea! I never thought of a partial grind. Less metal to remove, and a ready-made template.

 

[baldpate]

(Edit to add - I'll make a note of which way the end teeth are currently set, and set the new ones the same way, to prevent any possibility of bending metal in the opposite direction to which it has already been bent. Won't be a problem at one end because the jointing will take out all the existing set metal, but may be in the present low points.)

Good point that - I bet I would have gone ahead without making a note if you hadn't mentioned it. Thanks for the reminder.

Let us know how you get on with your makeover.

Chris
PS: Re making a saw vice : there are some fancy designs out there, but you don't need to expend much time on one. Mine is two offcuts of 18mm MDF, softwood strips top and bottom, hinged at the bottom with duct tape reinforced with wood strips, the top bevelled & shaped. Like this:

Matthew at Workshop Heaven has a saw sharpening video with just such a design (the video is worth a look if you haven't seen it yet). Mine works very well. Clamp it in the bench vice with just enough pressure too hold the blade and fine tune the position of the saw. Then clamp up the bench vice and apply a couple of light clamps at either end. Works a treat (except for being a trifle low).

 

[bugbear]

Hi Chris,

first of all check, if the teeth are not hardened. If they are, you'd need to aneal them or grind them away.

I Would file down 3/4 of the teeth and use the gullets to create new teeth with the rake you wish.

Cheers
Pedder

Just to add - after you have ground the teeth down is a REALLY good time to clean/polish the plate, should you wish, since your cleaning cloth or wire wool won't snag (so much...) on the stubs that remain.

BugBear

 

[baldpate]

Just reporting back. I got around to re-toothing the Sandvik today, following the various advice given above.
This makeover (unlike my earlier one - see opening post) went like a dream. This time the teeth ended up not just sharp, but pretty regular in shape, and all at the same height - see pic below.

I think I might be getting the hang of this saw sharpening lark (mind you, it's a hell of a lot easier doing a 7tpi handsaw than a fine-toothed backsaw, and a lot less strain on the eyes !). I might even be tempted to make a decent handle for it.

Thanks again for the help

Chris

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That looks pretty good to me! Have you test driven it yet?

A new handle would be a real bonus. I made one for mine out of beech, because that's the 19th century traditional wood. (Actually, that's a bit of a fib - I used beech because I had some.) I modelled it on the very comfortable curly handle on an old Drabble and Sanderson saw, shaping with a couple of Workshop Heaven rasps, which are a real joy to use. I'm half-way through making the saw-vice, but have managed to get the blade almost flat - another session might sort it. Then it'll be in with the files.

There's something very satisfying about using a tool you've made for yourself. I hope your saw gives you many years of good service and quiet satisfaction.

 

[jimi43]

Superb job there mate! =D> =D> =D>

I think a new handle is almost a must...beech is the traditional wood and if you select very carefully you can get some with wonderful grain. Or perhaps choose one of the fruitwoods.

For inspiration you should look at our dear friend and fellow member Herr Pedder! There are some beautiful handles over on their site HERE

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

An old Scandvik similar to your one is my most valuable tool...left to me by my grandad. I still use it for oddsn'ends around the 'shop, but haven't altered the teeth setting. It did need a bit of TLC though after I'd sawn through my big Japanese maple root ball (complete with grit, pebbles etc) when I was repotting it in Feb - Rob