Another plane question.
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Philly
Established Member
Roy
Do you mean the breast line, the opposite face to the bed??
Usually 10 to 12 degrees higher than the bed.
Hope this helps
Philly
Do you mean the breast line, the opposite face to the bed??
Usually 10 to 12 degrees higher than the bed.
Hope this helps
Philly
Cheers Philly, (the man with the answers).
I've just acquired an old American plane iron that has had little use, age unknown but the upper end is clearly iron, as opposed to steel, with a piece of really good steel hot welded to the base.
I've no other use for it so I thought a I'd try a high angle smoother for some very curly grain I've been sitting on for some time.
This will be the first time I've used a 55 degree smoother and I look forward to trying it out.
Any suggestions for the ground angle and the honed angle Philly?
Roy.
I've just acquired an old American plane iron that has had little use, age unknown but the upper end is clearly iron, as opposed to steel, with a piece of really good steel hot welded to the base.
I've no other use for it so I thought a I'd try a high angle smoother for some very curly grain I've been sitting on for some time.
This will be the first time I've used a 55 degree smoother and I look forward to trying it out.
Any suggestions for the ground angle and the honed angle Philly?
Roy.
Philly
Established Member
My pleasure, Roy!
I'd go with 25 degree grind, 30 to 35 degree hone.
Look forward to seeing your plane,
Philly
I'd go with 25 degree grind, 30 to 35 degree hone.
Look forward to seeing your plane,
Philly
Another question for Philly and those who use wooden planes. All my smoothing planes, metal and wood, have been made or converted to use laminated blades from old wooden planes. They are are all ground and honed to the same angle on the same equipment, now my question.
Is it my imagination or do wooden planes give a superior finish?
Roy.
Is it my imagination or do wooden planes give a superior finish?
Roy.
Philly
Established Member
Well, I'm certainly not going to disagree with you :lol:
Wood has damping properties that prevent chatter (infill planes exploit this to give superior performance) I feel this makes a real difference - combine that with the more involved feel of wooden plane-on-wood and you have a tool that leaves a flawless surface and a smile on your face.
Cheers
Philly
Wood has damping properties that prevent chatter (infill planes exploit this to give superior performance) I feel this makes a real difference - combine that with the more involved feel of wooden plane-on-wood and you have a tool that leaves a flawless surface and a smile on your face.
Cheers
Philly
I've made three planes so far Philly, two use a wedge and the third uses a Norris type system, and as far as I can tell the wedge is far superior to any other system for holding the iron firmly in place. On Bailey type planes I find that the iron is always moving sideways, granted the wooden ones are more difficult to adjust, but once set they stay set.
Roy.
Roy.
bugbear
Established Member
Philly":3ro7wygn said:
I thought in a Holtey plane the bedding was on metal lugs?
And in any case, until some fool makes a solid metal infill (i.e. a controlled experiment) we won't know which factor or infill design contributes most to chatter suppression. I "suspect" the 1/4" blades commonly used help as well
BugBear
A
Anonymous
Guest
Digit":b8ioj8zp said:
Well, I have made 6, have 5 made by Philly, and a couple of oldies and I have to say that they give a very nice finish, but definitely not 'superior' than a decent metal plane (often equal to it). A very sharp blade in any plane when set to take a fine shaving is likely to give decent results in a lot of wood species.
Phil's point about dampening is interesting, though I am not convinced, and I haven't experienced chatter from a metal plane since abandoning Stanley :wink:
I sometimes find woodies are more prone to tearout when compared to a decent metal plane which I suspect is due to the lack of very fine adjustment.
David C
In Memorium
BB,
The holtey 98 bedding, is a massive precision metal slope adjacent to the edge, with a single pillar at the adjustment boss. A sort of line and post arrangement. (Triangulation ?)
The advantage of the centre post, is that the front of blade cannot be twisted off the slope.
My feeling is that thick blades properly bedded, by whatever means, work very well.
best wishes,
David
The holtey 98 bedding, is a massive precision metal slope adjacent to the edge, with a single pillar at the adjustment boss. A sort of line and post arrangement. (Triangulation ?)
The advantage of the centre post, is that the front of blade cannot be twisted off the slope.
My feeling is that thick blades properly bedded, by whatever means, work very well.
best wishes,
David
jonbikebod
Established Member
Digit,
I remember an old guy who had been a carpenter all his life telling me a wooden plane will always give a superior finish than a meal plane because the sole of the wooden plane becomes polished with use and that polish was then imparted a polish on the work.
It just so happened I was asked to restore his planes after he passed away and I found his metal planes were sill rough ground.
We all know how much easier it is to push a metal plane when it has a polished sole so I suspect the friction from a roughly finished sole that is detrimental to the final finish. The blade and its dampening will certainly contribute as well.
Jon.
I remember an old guy who had been a carpenter all his life telling me a wooden plane will always give a superior finish than a meal plane because the sole of the wooden plane becomes polished with use and that polish was then imparted a polish on the work.
It just so happened I was asked to restore his planes after he passed away and I found his metal planes were sill rough ground.
We all know how much easier it is to push a metal plane when it has a polished sole so I suspect the friction from a roughly finished sole that is detrimental to the final finish. The blade and its dampening will certainly contribute as well.
Jon.
My wooden smother certainly leaves a better finish than either of my metal smoothers (one being a modern stanley -so praps I shouldn't expect too much - and the other being a rehabbed Record), I have a coffin smoother and if set up properly it leaves a very nice surface - almost burnished. I also have a wooden fore plane and a wee scrub which do their job admirably well for something thats comparatively low tech when placed next to something like the LV LA jack. Contrary to Tony's thought that wooden planes are difficult to set up accurately, I find my metal planes as fiddly as can be while wooden ones are dead simple to setup to take the cut I want them to.
Cheers Mike
Cheers Mike
All three of my Bailey types have the old full frog, and with a 3/16 thk iron show no signs of chatter, but keeping them on song needs the cap iron screw screwed down tight after setting to stop the iron wandering sideways. Adjustment of the frog for different mouths sizes is of course a pain, whereas the wooden ones have all got an adjustable mouth, a vastly superior arrangement IMO.
Roy.
Roy.
dchenard
Established Member
Digit":31rh1zoe said:
That's why Veritas puts those setscrews on each side of the bed...
DC-C
jonbikebod
Established Member
I have added dome tipped grub screws to a couple of my Bailey planes. I did it initially to stop the blade slewing in use. I then found the lateral adjustment also worked more precisely.
Slewing isn’t so much a problem with a cambered blade of course because the camber centres the forces on the blade.
Jon.
Slewing isn’t so much a problem with a cambered blade of course because the camber centres the forces on the blade.
Jon.
David C
In Memorium
This is very interesting.
Perhaps the blade moving out of position only affects the straight blade user? Though I have not noticed this on bench rebate planes, or any of my other planes.
I wonder if it is something to do with the tension set by the lever cap screw, or other plane tuning points such as flatness of width of underside of lever cap front edge or top of chipbreaker curve?
David C
Perhaps the blade moving out of position only affects the straight blade user? Though I have not noticed this on bench rebate planes, or any of my other planes.
I wonder if it is something to do with the tension set by the lever cap screw, or other plane tuning points such as flatness of width of underside of lever cap front edge or top of chipbreaker curve?
David C
Thinking about it DC I think, in my case, it is probably do to the fact that I tend to plane with the plane canted at an angle to the direction it is travelling in. Never thought about that before.
Roy.
Roy.
jonbikebod
Established Member
The two planes I have found the need to modify are a Record # 5½ and a Stanley #6. Both of these planes are fundamentally tuned as ‘Super Smoothers’™ but I also use them with a thinner ‘samurai’ laminated blade for flattening boards (not needing to move the frog to open the mouth). This blade has the corners relieved more than being cambered to get a good width of cut. In this mode, I do use them diagonally to the grain direction which would tie-in with Roy’s experience.
I have also probably made matters worse for myself by flattening the bedding surface of my frogs. The original surface was far from flat but was also very coarsely ground (and lacquered on the Stanley). Flattening the frog makes a ‘full house – as fitted to their planes’ L-N blade bed far better and dramatically reduces the likelihood of chatter when used on very hard woods. The downside is the friction between the frog and blade is reduced (standard Stanley and Record blades are also lacquered on the ‘front’ surface, which is high friction against a course ground frog).
Tightening the lever cap screw doesn’t help much with a finely ground quality replacement blade but does stress the adjustment mechanisms. (The leading edge of the lever cap is flattened to apply even pressure across the width of the blade). Positive lateral location of the blade with dome ended grub screws is a better engineered solution.
The bronze frog of L-N bench planes not only provides a high mass where it is useful I suspect the ground bronze surface also provides better ‘grip’ on a steel blade than cast iron does. I have never had a slewing problem with one of their planes.
BTW The planes I have modified were bought new by me in the 80s (5½) and 90s (6), so I have no reservations about modifying them. I wouldn’t do this to an old bedrock or sweetheart.
Jon.
I have also probably made matters worse for myself by flattening the bedding surface of my frogs. The original surface was far from flat but was also very coarsely ground (and lacquered on the Stanley). Flattening the frog makes a ‘full house – as fitted to their planes’ L-N blade bed far better and dramatically reduces the likelihood of chatter when used on very hard woods. The downside is the friction between the frog and blade is reduced (standard Stanley and Record blades are also lacquered on the ‘front’ surface, which is high friction against a course ground frog).
Tightening the lever cap screw doesn’t help much with a finely ground quality replacement blade but does stress the adjustment mechanisms. (The leading edge of the lever cap is flattened to apply even pressure across the width of the blade). Positive lateral location of the blade with dome ended grub screws is a better engineered solution.
The bronze frog of L-N bench planes not only provides a high mass where it is useful I suspect the ground bronze surface also provides better ‘grip’ on a steel blade than cast iron does. I have never had a slewing problem with one of their planes.
BTW The planes I have modified were bought new by me in the 80s (5½) and 90s (6), so I have no reservations about modifying them. I wouldn’t do this to an old bedrock or sweetheart.
Jon.
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