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Pete Maddex

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Yawn, saw stop again!

Its only for yanks who don't believe in working safely. :wink:

Pete
 

custard

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Pete Maddex":3nekyqbc said:
Its only for yanks who don't believe in working safely.
I thought a recent legal judgement in the US may mandate the use of these devices...so those cowboy Yanks may leapfrog over us smug Europeans in the safety stakes! They already have footbrakes on their bandsaws when we don't, so why not sawstops on their saws.
 

9fingers

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Last time I looked at these, they were not retrofittable to existing saws and the replacement cartridge plus blade was expensive.
I know you can't put a price on lost fingers etc but any false triggering of the technology would quickly push up the cost of ownership.

I've no idea for example how well they would work with damp wood. How well can the electronics discriminate between this and a frankfurter or finger?

Bob
 

Pete Maddex

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Hi, Custard

I can't believe it will improve safety, just encourage a more relaxed altitude “Saw stop will protect me, wonder if it’s on this machine”

Pete
 

9fingers

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+1 Pete.

I think similar arguments can be levelled at modern cars. Fast, quiet and full of safety related gadgets encourages some to be unaware of how close they go to tyres losing their grip.
When cars were noisy and the doors rattled when you got about 50mph, the lack of sound insulation and power steering meant you knew when you were close to the edge!

Bob
 

custard

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9fingers":50mfiluw said:
+1 Pete.

I think similar arguments can be levelled at modern cars. Fast, quiet and full of safety related gadgets encourages some to be unaware of how close they go to tyres losing their grip.
Road deaths are trending down, last year was the lowest since records began in 1926!
 

tomatwark

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custard":367lto7j said:
Pete Maddex":367lto7j said:
Its only for yanks who don't believe in working safely.
They already have footbrakes on their bandsaws when we don't

That's because they are so far behind us, it has been the law in this country for quite a few years now that all new machines have to stop within 10 seconds so foot and hand brakes are not really needed any more, the old Wadkins and Startrites had them.


Hopefully the HSE in this country will look at SawStop and realise that it is a daft idea, we have things called guards in this country, the Americans don't seem to have invented them as yet, you only have to look at the TV programmes and the magazines they produce.

If they do insist on it over here there will a thread on the forum within hours about how to disable it.

The other point is if people start to have a more relaxed attitude to their table saw, they will towards their other machines as well and a spindle moulder is not forgiving.

The court case mentioned was for an accident caused by lack of training, guards and common sense, they would be far better to ban dado sets insist on riving knives and guards and proper training.

Tom
 

Pete Maddex

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Hi, Tom

I remember one case where the drunk father was supervising his young son on the table saw, you can't believe how many idiots are out there.

Pete
 

Chrispy

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When I posted this link I never for one moment thought that it would be a usable safety device. I couldn't ever trust it to work and far to easy to set off with a bit of wet wood etc.
My reason was how this man has the faith in his product to stick his finger against a moving saw blade in that way. just goes against the grain to me!
 

tomatwark

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Pete Maddex":1lh213is said:
Hi, Tom

I remember one case where the drunk father was supervising his young son on the table saw, you can't believe how many idiots are out there.

Pete
I can well believe it.

Sawstop is not going to make any real difference as the people who don't use their machines properly and take the guards off them will just disconnect it anyway.

I think it is just an expensive gimmick to keep the lawyers happy and to encourage people not to learn how to use their machinery properly.

Tom
 

tomatwark

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Chrispy":laryifl3 said:
When I posted this link I never for one moment thought that it would be a usable safety device. I couldn't ever trust it to work and far to easy to set off with a bit of wet wood etc.
My reason was how this man has the faith in his product to stick his finger against a moving saw blade in that way. just goes against the grain to me!
Hi Chris

Unfortunately you opened this can of worms once again. :lol: :lol:

Tom
 

custard

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I'm not arguing for or against the Stopsaw, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or another.

But this superior Brit attitude towards safety puzzles me. What makes us think we're holier than thou?

Yes, there seems to be better guarding/riving knives on Euro kit. But do we actually use it? We can get dado sets here too and I've seen plenty of them in use without any guarding at all. Not to mention the thousands of router tables that are completely guard free, or the thousands of turners that operate their machines without any protection at all.

And I've often heard the statistic quoted that nine Americans a day lose a finger or suffer other serious injury whilst woodworking. But what's the equivalent statistic in the UK? I can't find anything so precise (the HSE admit they need to improve their statistical analysis), I did however read that in the four years to 2000 there were 2500 major injuries in the UK woodworking trade sector. That averages out at nearly two a day. Given that the US has over five times our population it doesn't seem that we've much to feel smug about.

And finally, all this focus on woodworking injuries may even be missing the elephant in the room.

About fifty woodworkers a year are diagnosed with nasal cancer (compared with the two woodworkers a year that die in workplace accidents according to the HSE), and there's strong evidence that wood dust is carcinogenic (actually it's even more concerning as a lot of the case evidence predates the wide scale use of plywood and MDF). You'd probably survive a finger amputation, what's the chances of surviving nasal cancer?

Maybe what we should really be focusing on is dust masks and dust extraction?
 

tomatwark

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custard":1v2qzh4w said:
I'm not arguing for or against the Stopsaw, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or another.

But this superior Brit attitude towards safety puzzles me. What makes us think we're holier than thou?

Yes, there seems to be better guarding/riving knives on Euro kit. But do we actually use it? We can get dado sets here too and I've seen plenty of them in use without any guarding at all. Not to mention the thousands of router tables that are completely guard free, or the thousands of turners that operate their machines without any protection at all.

And I've often heard the statistic quoted that nine Americans a day lose a finger or suffer other serious injury whilst woodworking. But what's the equivalent statistic in the UK? I can't find anything so precise (the HSE admit they need to improve their statistical analysis), I did however read that in the four years to 2000 there were 2500 major injuries in the UK woodworking trade sector. That averages out at nearly two a day. Given that the US has over five times our population it doesn't seem that we've much to feel smug about.

And finally, all this focus on woodworking injuries may even be missing the elephant in the room.

About fifty woodworkers a year are diagnosed with nasal cancer (compared with the two woodworkers a year that die in workplace accidents according to the HSE), and there's strong evidence that wood dust is carcinogenic (actually it's even more concerning as a lot of the case evidence predates the wide scale use of plywood and MDF). You'd probably survive a finger amputation, what's the chances of surviving nasal cancer?

Maybe what we should really be focusing on is dust masks and dust extraction?

The problem with the UK statistics is that they cover the woodworking trade sector, and will include things like injuries from falling off timber racks and lifting things etc.

Also the years that you are talking about are before the change in the law regarding braking of machines and also the use of chip limited cutter safety blocks.

Part of the reason that these laws were brought in was to stop people clearing waste from machines after they had switched them off without waiting for the blade to stop and also the old whitehill type blocks were dangerous if they were not maintained or set up properly and could fire cutters across the workshop without warning.

It would be interesting to see if the figures have altered since 2000 though.

You are quite right about the dust problem and it will be my generation that will suffer as when MDF started to be used more and more we were not told the risks by our employers.

So there probably is a time bomb waiting to go off regarding this, I am about to cut some this morning and while I have good extraction on my panel saw, some dust will still escape and I will wear my P3 mask.

I don't even sweep up any more but vacuum instead.

10 - 15 years ago I would have worn a basic dust mask if at all.

All I can now do is like a lot of others is wait to see if I am going to be a statistic myself.

The laws on extraction have been tighten over the last few years and I suspect will continue to be and it will get to the point that the cloth bag extractors become illegal.

Tom
 

Sawyer

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custard":1qfu7erl said:
9fingers":1qfu7erl said:
+1 Pete.

I think similar arguments can be levelled at modern cars. Fast, quiet and full of safety related gadgets encourages some to be unaware of how close they go to tyres losing their grip.
Road deaths are trending down, last year was the lowest since records began in 1926!
Ah, but do the statistics disginuish between the deaths of people who were inside cars, vs. people who outside them :?:

I doubt if modern car safety features have done much to improve the safety of pedestrians, cyclists &c. ?
 

custard

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Sawyer":31cm8yws said:
custard":31cm8yws said:
9fingers":31cm8yws said:
+1 Pete.

I think similar arguments can be levelled at modern cars. Fast, quiet and full of safety related gadgets encourages some to be unaware of how close they go to tyres losing their grip.
Road deaths are trending down, last year was the lowest since records began in 1926!
Ah, but do the statistics disginuish between the deaths of people who were inside cars, vs. people who outside them :?:

I doubt if modern car safety features have done much to improve the safety of pedestrians, cyclists &c. ?
UK road fatalities are trending down for all road users, including pedestrians, cyclists, and motorcyclists. It's true that the very latest figures show a very slight increase in cyclist deaths, but that's one quarter against a multi year trend of decline.

A combination of drink/driving legislation, ABS brakes, regular MOT's, airbags, crumple zones, compulsory seat belt use, speed cameras, etc has been steadily reducing the death toll on British roads for years and years. And that's despite traffic volumes increasing 15% in the past decade alone.

I know we'd all like to believe the urban myth that safety devices make you complacent, and that you're better off without them. But that's a myth. It'd be funny...except as well as being wrong it's also dangerous.

The hard fact is that safety devices work. And if you make them compulsory then they work even better.
 

JakeS

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Sawyer":gel1z9q8 said:
I doubt if modern car safety features have done much to improve the safety of pedestrians, cyclists &c. ?
I believe the ban on metal 'bull bars' and subsequent move to integrated and/or plastic 'springy' systems was done entirely for the benefit of pedestrians, cyclists etc..

I seem to recall something about the profile of bonnets being better for pedestrian impacts these days (I guess it's better to go up and over than get caught on the front and absorb all the impact?), although I can't recall whether it was legislation or just one of those things that get measured.
 
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