Advice on external arched doors

[tsb]

I've offered to have a go at making a new pair of entrance doors and frame for my church. I've never really made any external joinery before but would love to have a go.
First question-- Which timber would be best to use for such a job. I'm thinking either oak, pitch pine or douglas fir.The original door is made from pitch pine, I suspect, which is finished to look like oak. I'm worried about movement, splitting and workability so any advice on timber would be great.
Second question-- Any recommendations on books to read re manufacturing arched doors.
I'm sure there will be more questions in the future but I'll start with these two first

 

[deema]

Making an arched door really isn’t that much different than making a standard rectangular door. Mortise and tenon all of the joints and your fine. For the arch laminate three layers of stuff together, normally the inside and outside layer are from just two pieces that join at the top. However depending what you have available you may need two joints to given three piece all the same size. However this option does not look anywhere as good as the first. Most books say use just two layers, which also works fine with one layer cut to create the rebate for the glass / panel. However the inside and outside of the door will look different, you have to overlap the join of each layer. With using three layers I get the inside and outside to look identical and use any stuff with defects that I’ve got for the middle layer.....it will never be seen. It also creates a far more stable sandwich than just two layers. When gluding up I screw the middle layer to an outside layer after spreading glue. This not only acts as a clamp but also enables me to be sure that I’ve got the meeting point of the two pieces in the outside absolutely butted up. With just clamps is can move. A place screws from the inside layer out, so that when the third layer is added the screw holes are covered and never seen. I only add the third layer after the first has set. You can add the third layer and leave the screws inside as long as the are either brass or stainless steel. I prefer not to take the risk of any corrosion starting and bleeding pigment to the outside.

For a church the traditional material is oak for the doors etc.

 

[MikeG.]

I'm about to do two arched doors, starting tomorrow I hope..

Before you go too far you have to decide whether you are going to go for traditional joinery, such as a board and ledged door, or something more along the lines deema is talking about. I'd look very closely at the design of the church, its age, other doors, and so on before coming to a judgement. A framed door as per deema's description is a very modern invention, typically, and might look out of place if the church is mediaeval.

Check out the photos of older doors here. That should give you an idea.

 

[HOJ]

I have a book by George Collins, Circular work in Carpentry and Joinery which covers curves, found this link to a PDF version.

mikestrade.sydneyinstitute.wikispaces.net/

 

[AJB Temple]

Why are the doors, and frame (?), being replaced? A picture would help.

I reclaimed a pair of oak arched church doors, repaired and refinished them and used in another building. They were VERY heavy and awkward to handle.

 

[Jacob]

I'm about to do two arched doors, starting tomorrow I hope..

Before you go too far you have to decide whether you are going to go for traditional joinery, such as a board and ledged door, or something more along the lines deema is talking about. I'd look very closely at the design of the church, its age, other doors, and so on before coming to a judgement. A framed door as per deema's description is a very modern invention, typically, and might look out of place if the church is mediaeval.

Check out the photos of older doors here. That should give you an idea.

Yep.
Painted redwood is common and very durable (as long as the paint is maintained). Often woodgrain effect but that's a specialist area! Can look very nice in simple plain colours.
Arches are usually one solid piece per 90º i.e. a circular window would have four pieces, a round top door just two.
The stile is most easily joined as a straight through bare faced tenon into a mortice in the curved top "rail", and is one of the rare circumstances where draw-boring comes into its own.
The top of the curve then joined to the stile (or to the other curved rail if its a single leaf door, or a round window) with a dropped-in bare-face loose tenon - also draw bored. The mortice would go straight through horizontally not stopped in any way i.e. the loose tenon quite a long straight piece, draw bored again.
NB if draw-boring a loose tenon you do one end by simple drilling through and pegging - then draw bore the other end - you don't draw-bore both! This is often done to join timbers in a heavy table top - all you see from the top is a little pattern of dowels.
The trad way strikes me as a lot easier than laminating. Modern methods are very often just an attempted re-invention of a forgotten technique, rather than being an improvement.

 

[tsb]

Thanks for all the replies. The doors are similar to these:

The link to the book HOJ is great. With it being a listed building I would have to stick to traditional joinery. Whether I can use a different timber to what is there, I would have to look into. The doors have been repaired many times over the years but not very well.
I'm only a hobbyist so its not a proper job! it's something I've offered to have a go at.

 

[ColeyS1]

This was one i made a few years ago.

I think the very top joint had a loose tenon in both, and the top of the stiles had tenons with mortices in the bottom of the curvy parts. I must have just relied on epoxy cause I don't see any drawbores in the picture. One of my main headscratch issues was the placement of the middle rail. I didn't want the lock to be taking away the wedged middle rail so opted to put it underneath it. At least it's got a good bit of bracing with the middle and bottom rail being wedged.
Something with a shallower curve like

Can be done the same as you would a normal rectangular door-straightforward wedged mortice and tenons.
One thing you may find is it might be easier cutting the curves after you've formed the mortice and tenons. It's easier squaring lines around when you've a straight edge to work to, instead of trying to work with a curve.

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[ColeyS1]

This is a bit tragic...lol, but I kept part of the frame I took out because I liked the joint they used.

Gotta love the craftsmanship that went into that joint though !

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[dexter]

You mention that the church is a listed building, perhaps a word with the listing people as to what timber and construction they would accept would be prudent.
Rather than spending time and effort making the door and frame only to be told that it is not a suitable replacement.
Dex

 

[AJB Temple]

From experience, make sure you have a written letter from whoever is responsible for the church, confirming that they have instructed you to do whatever the specification is and that they, not you are responsible for satisfying the requirements of (as applicable) church commissioners, English heritage, local planners and building control, fire officer.

I've developed a lot of listed buildings when I used to run a property company, and it is best to limit your liability as far as possible.

If you are doing the work as a favour, make sure that this is clear and in writing, and that you are not accepting liability for anything.

 

[tsb]

It looks like it could be a lot of hoops to jump through regarding the amount of people to satisfy but at the moment i'm only bothered about the making of the door. I think I'll have a play with some large off cuts regarding the joints and curves before I go any further but thanks for all the help

 

[Woodmonkey]

Thanks for all the replies. The doors are similar to these:

The link to the book HOJ is great. With it being a listed building I would have to stick to traditional joinery. Whether I can use a different timber to what is there, I would have to look into. The doors have been repaired many times over the years but not very well.
I'm only a hobbyist so its not a proper job! it's something I've offered to have a go at.

Cripes! Not to put a downer on it, but making something like that to go in an important building does not strike me as a job for a hobbyist. I admire your ambition, but that is a few grands worth of work, and as someone else said very heavy and awkward to make/ handle.