50 Deg angle in Eclipse Honing Jig?

[MrDavidRoberts]

just got a bevel up plane and wanted to hone my plane iron to micro 50degrees, trouble is.. I have no idea how far do you need to extend the iron out of the jig to get 50 degrees?
Anyone have the same jig and can shed some light, perhaps is there a guide/common values available or a formula to determine the angles vs how far you need to extend?

 

[NickN]

This thread (especially the third post's graph) may help:

eclipse-projection-board-27deg-t27564.html

 

[Rorschach]

I thought the max angle is about 40-45 in an eclipse jig?

 

[ED65]

Some people are always trying to ice skate uphill.... It's a microbevel for goodness sake, you can create that with about two strokes on your finest abrasive which I would imagine anyone can manage to do freehand.

The exact angle isn't critical, just find 45, go up a smidge and you'll be close enough.

But if your personal level of OCD insists you must have exactly 50° then saw a small wedge that you use as a takeoff ramp.

 

[custard]

just got a bevel up plane and wanted to hone my plane iron to micro 50degrees, trouble is.. I have no idea how far do you need to extend the iron out of the jig to get 50 degrees?

50 degrees in an Eclipse jig is just possible, but only if you make some adjustments to the honing jig itself. This video shows you how,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzzCXq5ook

These changes are well worth doing even if you don't need a 50 degree honing angle, they turn the Eclipse jig from a good tool into an excellent tool. The only problem I encountered was that normal files get clogged when working aluminium, I tried dusting the file with chalk but it didn't really help. In the end I bought a special file designed for soft metals which fixed the problem.

 

[custard]

Here are some photos I took when I was adapting some Eclipse jigs that might help you.

On the left is the standard Eclipse jig, on the right is a version where I've filed away part of the body so that it now permits a 50 degree angle, if you look carefully you can see the steeper angle,

This is the type of soft metal file that you'll need, look out for that distinctive diamond pattern,

This shows a standard Eclipse, an adjusted Eclipse, and the Lie Nielsen honing jig. The LN jig goes to over 50 degrees straight from the box, plus it's beautifully made and a delight to use, only problem is the price!

Personally, I'd suggest just filing the Eclipse jig to the pattern detailed in the previously posted video. You'll find honing becomes progressively more awkward as the angle get's steeper, there's hardly any blade projection at all so it's fiddly to grasp the jig and apply pressure to the blade. But persevere and you'll get there.

Good luck!

 

[Rorschach]

Interesting info there! I might do that to one of my honing guides, though I have never needed an angle that steep it could be good to try out. Might skip the filing and use the belt grinder though lol

 

[custard]

I might do that to one of my honing guides, though I have never needed an angle that steep

It's well worth doing for another reason. A down side of the Eclipse design is that when you tighten it the jig bows upwards ever so slightly in the middle, meaning a bump forms under the centre of your plane iron, so it may end up at a slight angle, which then throws off your square cutting edge and centralised camber.

At the back is the standard Eclipse jig, by filing away some of the material marked with a felt pen you get to the jig in the front, and when that one is tightened up the iron remains straight and true.

 

[Rorschach]

Already done that on my two (eclipse clone) jigs, neither was gripping chisels or plane irons well due to defects in the casting so I filed them both. Didn't do anything to the outside though.

 

[Jacob]

It's easy to just hold it at about 50º and do it freehand. Doesn't have to be exact. Hint: 50º is just slightly more than 45º, which is half a right angle. Hope that isn't confusing!
NB thats how all sharpening was done, until jigs came in about 30 years ago and made things difficult.

 

[Racers]

Lee Valey patient citing patient back to 1870, a bit more than 30 years

https://patents.justia.com/patent/D767360

Pete

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

just got a bevel up plane and wanted to hone my plane iron to micro 50degrees, trouble is.. I have no idea how far do you need to extend the iron out of the jig to get 50 degrees?
Anyone have the same jig and can shed some light, perhaps is there a guide/common values available or a formula to determine the angles vs how far you need to extend?

Hi David

The Eclipse was the preferred guide before the Veritas Mk2 came along. The latter makes honing to 50 degrees a relatively easy task, but the Eclipse is very capable as long as the toe is ground away for clearance. This is a rather simple matter, since it is built of aluminium. I used a belt sander. The other modification mentioned here are a good idea, especially for the Eclipse clones. These were introduced by Lie Nielsen before they designed and built their own guide.

This is (unfortunately) a need for being rather exact with secondary micro bevels when it comes to BU planes. The angle determines the cutting angle, and this can make-or-break the outcome on wood with interlocked grain. One of the attractions of BD planes for me is that blade angles do not need to be exact.

The other matter when honing at 50 degrees is that you only pull the blade backwards, never try to hone it forwards. You'll do the latter only once.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ED65]

The other matter when honing at 50 degrees is that you only pull the blade backwards, never try to hone it forwards. You'll do the latter only once.

I hone an iron with an approximate 60° bevel using back-and-forth strokes. I formed the single bevel the same way.

Edge-leading strokes at a steep honing angle might be something you would only do once on a waterstone, but diamond hones and (most?) oilstones don't care.

On the angle, do you think there's a difference worth noting in the quality of planed surfaces between, say, 48 and 52 degrees?

 

[Jacob]

Lee Valey patient citing patient back to 1870, a bit more than 30 years

https://patents.justia.com/patent/D767360

Pete

They've been around for a long time but hardly anybody used them. Old ones are exceedingly rare. They were invented as gadgets for the gent woodworker but are basically useless - it's easier without them.
They caught on with the boom in amateur woodwork which took off in the 70's when people had more spare time and more money.

 

[AES]

Jacob wrote, QUOTE: ... are basically useless - it's easier without them. UNQUOTE:

IMO, there's a couple of words missing there Sir, QUOTE: At least I find it easier without them. UNQUOTE:

With respect (really, because you really DO seem to know yer onions in some areas) why so often these sweeping statements in your posts Jacob?

Example: I'm by no means a gentleman, let alone a "gentleman wood worker", but try as I might (and I have tried - VERY often, 'onest) I just end up with a rounded bevel when I try without the honing guide. AND I have the hollow in my stones to prove it!

It just seems to be a knack that, try as I might, I just don't seem to be able to develop. More practice needed I guess, but for me anyway, life's just too short.

And judging by the number of posts that often crop up here on the subject of honing guides (I'm NOT talking about sharpening please note!), I'm not alone in that either.

I really do NOT believe that such subjects are a matter of absolutes, as your posts so often state Jacob.

 

[custard]

Most top end cabinet makers automatically think in terms of jigs and use them throughout their projects. They've learnt from hard experience that jigging a job delivers consistent, predictable, flawless results.

I'd recommend any beginner to take a leaf from their books and consider jigging their sharpening with a cheap, simple honing guide. If you can do it freehand that's fine, but if not why struggle when an Eclipse clone costs just a few quid?

Woodworking is already packed full of challenges and frustrations, it's daft to add sharpening to the list.

 

[Jacob]

........
...judging by the number of posts that often crop up here on the subject of honing guides ....

Because they are problematic.
Freehand sharpening hardly gets a mention in any of the old literature, except a sentence or two of beginners advice, because it's something you'd learn how to do in 20 minutes somewhere near the start of your career.

 

[AES]

Well Jacob, here's yet another sweeping statement from you!!!!!!! (hammer)

Not only do you have a post immediately above yours (from someone who no member here can possibly dismiss as trivial or inexperienced) which completely disagrees with you; but - once again - I must point out that for me personally, I HAVE tried for a LOT longer than your quoted 20 minutes and it STILL just hasn't clicked! OK, so I'm a cack-handed dummy! Does that mean that according to your book I shouldn't be wood working at all?

WHY is it that you just seem to be totally unable to make any allowance for anyone who has the "temerity" to have a different skill level - OR a different opinion - to your own?

That habit of yours really does SO diminish the undoubted value of so many of your posts.

 

[Jacob]

I admit to being a bit obsessed! Not least because it was such a relief to get back to basics and discover how to sharpen quickly and easily, after fiddling about for years with jigs just like everybody else.
I've acquired an ever growing respect for trad craft over the years - the high level of skill often with simplest tools. With the ending of hand woodwork as a major trade I reckon a lot of skilful practices have been lost and forgotten. Sharpening being the most obvious.
How on earth did generations manage for 1000s of years without honing jigs? What about Grinling Gibbons, Chippendale etc. were they stupid or what?
Did it really take 1000s of years for the sharpening jig to be invented and to involve into its current form?
What else has been un-learned over the years? Probably a helluva lot IMHO.

Woodworking is already packed full of challenges and frustrations, it's daft to add sharpening to the list.

-exactly, why make it difficult as per our OP trying to do the almost impossible with a jig, when it could be done so easily without one.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The other matter when honing at 50 degrees is that you only pull the blade backwards, never try to hone it forwards. You'll do the latter only once.

I hone an iron with an approximate 60° bevel using back-and-forth strokes. I formed the single bevel the same way.

Edge-leading strokes at a steep honing angle might be something you would only do once on a waterstone, but diamond hones and (most?) oilstones don't care.

On the angle, do you think there's a difference worth noting in the quality of planed surfaces between, say, 48 and 52 degrees?

I would argue that pushing a guide forward at 50 degrees runs a high risk of tipping the edge and damaging it on a diamond stone. On a waterstone, which creates a far better edge than a diamond stone, you run the danger of gouging the surface.

Regarding the difference between 48- and 52 degrees, which equates to a 60 and 64 degree cutting angle on a BU plane, this depends on the wood you are planing - how interlocked is the grain. I rarely needed to go above 60 degrees when I used BU planes (I use them infrequently now), but I recall David Charlesworth mentioning 70 degrees (using a back bevel on his #5 1/2).

Regards from Perth

Derek