16A 3 phase plugs - are the different makes interchangeable?

[ondablade]

Hi guys. I need a plug to hook my 3 phase 3kW bandsaw up to the output of the Transwave 5.5kW/400V rotary phase converter I recently bought.

The socket fitted on the converter is a red PCE (Austria) 5 pin 3phase + neutral + earth 16A/6hr IP44 item, but the bandsaw has a 32A plug fitted (this was what the previous owner had standardised on) which is physically much larger.

Do I have to buy a specific PCE made plug to suit the socket on the converter, or will any IP 44 5 pin 3 phase plug fit? i.e. are the physical dimensions standard/are they interchangeable?

If it does need to be a PCE, does anybody have any suggestions for a source?

Thank you

 

[9fingers]

Ian,

They should all be interchangeable and made to BS4343/IEC309

Make sure you get the right number of pins and the right sex of pins.

Bob

 

[ondablade]

Thanks very much Bob, that's good news and your quoting the relevant standard will make it simpler to tie down too.

Number of pins is fine (5), I'm a little less sure about the sex bit but presume you mean to be sure to get the male or female half as appropriate. (it's the male half I need)

 

[9fingers]

I'm a little less sure about the sex bit but presume you mean to be sure to get the male or female half as appropriate. (it's the male half I need)

Yes I meant the male /female option. These connectors are available with both male and female types in cable mounting so some potential for confusion. Usually the male version does not have a protective cover at the business end.

Bob

 

[ondablade]

Ta Bob. I picked up a 3 phase/5 pin 16A plug today and it fits perfectly - and in the process discovered there's a lot to be said for heading for an industrial electrical wholesaler rather than one specialising in domestic stuff. Night and day on both what they stock, and on knowledge.

One issue that has arisen as I went to wire it tonight (sorry to ask, but I'm stuck yet again) is that it turns out that one conductor (possibly the neutral?) wire was not connected in the original (5 pin) male plug on the band saw cable - it was just taped with yellow/green striped tape and left hanging free inside the socket. The other three conductors were connected to the terminals marked L1, L2 and L3 in the socket - the three phases I presume. The green/yellow is connected to the earth terminal as you would expect.

This original plug was used with a Transwave rotary converter by the original owner - but a larger model powering his entire shop which explains the 32A socket rather than the 16A item needed for mine.

The (screened) band saw cable meanwhile has a yellow/green earth conductor, and four black conductors numbered (printed on) 1,2,3 and 4. The number 4 conductor is the one that was taped off and left loose.

All of which has rather buggerd my crafty plan to copy the wiring of the original plug when wiring the new one.

The Agazzani wiring diagram I have was sourced in the US, and is for a US spec 230/460V/60Hz 3 phase saw. It seems to show a 4 wire/no neutral set up rather than the 5 wire neutral and earth variety.

I don't know, but I'm presuming that the output from the Transwave rotary converter I have is 5 wire/3 phase - it's certainly fitted with a 5 pin socket. I'm also presuming that my saw as a UK model originally supplied through Ney Ltd. would have used the 5 wire system - but maybe this is my mistake.

So I guess I'm wondering how to proceed. It's tempting to just bung conductor number four in the inviting neutral terminal in my new plug, but maybe it was left disconnected for a reason on the plug I've just taken off?

I can't make any sense as to why there are four black conductors in the cable.

A quick dig suggests that while black or brown is fairly common usage in Europe for all three phase conductors, the neutral is normally blue and the earth green and yellow. Can this be some sort of local Italian deal designed to electrocute amateurs? :?

 

[9fingers]

I expect the cable was just something they had to hand.

I came across something similar on a mates Wadkin planer. Certainly not the original wiring.

I dont think (but not certain!) that transwave provide a neutral.

It does not look like your saw needs a neutral (some machines use it for a work light)

I suspect your L4 is disconnected inside the saw But just in case I would copy the existing and tape up the unused end.

The colours are a nightmare.

Latest cable is black, brown & grey for three phases and blue for neutral and green/yellow for earth. Screens are used with inverters and normally bonded to earth at the inverter only to reduce radiated currents and radio interference.

There is a table of colours on WIKI somewhere for different countries and time periods.

hth

Bob

 

[ondablade]

Thanks again Bob. It sounds like a quick look inside the terminal box on the saw might not be a bad idea to confirm there's no neutral connected.

I guess on reflection that maybe Agazzani used a standard cable they also use on other applications with one too many conductors (maybe they buy a stock cable in very large quantities to cover multiple markets and applications - see below), or that the original owner of the saw installed a non standard cable with an extra conductor.

This seems to be the IET page listing the latest colours and wiring practices you mention: http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring ... ns/colour/

On cable with numbered black conductors with a green/yellow earth - it's not 100% clear as I found cryptic references only, but a bit of digging turned up a shielded one like what I have with numbered conductors intended for use with inverter drives. Another piece seemed to say that makers of equipment going into multiple markets involving so many colour coding systems that they can't be safely satisfied with any single colour based system of identification may use numbered black conductors. The IET or Euro standards seem to provide for some sort of self certification by manufacturers, maybe to enable this. They also seem to be used on industrial applications using very high numbers of cores laid in cable trays.

Anyway Lots of useless half information. God bless Google......

 

[ondablade]

OK, just an update for Bob and anybody else that might be interested.

First off it turns out that the Transwave RT 5.5kw rotary converter I have to power the band saw has a neutral feed to its output socket. It uses the old UK cable colours inside - black = neutral, red = L1, yellow = L2 and blue = L3.

The band saw turns out to be wired the same as the US three phase version - it needs no neutral. The low voltage required for the star delta and on/off switches is produced by a transformer connected across L2 and L3.

Transwave recommend that any 230V control outputs required from the converter are best wired from L1 and L2 since L3 is the manufactured and consequently the imperfect phase. Using L3 may lead to solenoid chattering etc.

This I think could mean that I ideally need to re-arrange the plug so that L2 and L3 on the saw are fed from L1 and L2 on the converter - so that the transformer is getting full voltage. It's been working OK with the transformer across L2 and L3 though, so I think I'll maybe leave it that way to avoid confusing the position on phase labelling.

Finally it seems that the bandsaw cable with numbered black conductors probably did come from Agazzani - the wiring internal to the saw also uses this system.

 

[kirkpoore1]

Hi, Ian:

The transformer in your bandsaw produces lower voltage power for the coil in your magnetic starter. The coil, and possibly the transformer itself, can be burned out by too high a voltage, which can be produced in the "wild" (manufactured) leg of your phase converter. I would suggest, then, that you at least check the voltages going into and out of the transformer to make sure they're close to the nominal voltages marked on the transformer and the coil of the starter. By close I'd say withinin 10% and possibly within 5% of the required voltage.

The "chattering" that the Transwave guy mentioned would likely be an indicator of a low voltage condition in the coil. It may not be able to keep the contacts closed completely in all circumstances if the voltage is too low.

If you do rewire the transformer to use the two native feeds (L1 and L2), I wouldn't rewire your plug. First, if it's a factory built plug you'll probably have to buy a new one. Second, it will probably end up with your saw running backwards until you switch wires someplace else. I would move your transformer wire from L3 to L1 at the point where that wire is split off from the main cord.

Good luck with your setup. Phase converters are definitely the way to go if you plan on using several large 3 phase machines.

Kirk

 

[ondablade]

And I thought I'd talked myself into an 'it'll be good enough' position Kirk. Thanks for that though - I'll have to figure out exactly where the transformer connections are made.

I'm presuming I'm correct in thinking that in principle transformers don't mind which phases they are connected to, and that it isn't good practice to mix the phases around in the plug anyway.

On rotary converters. My other machines (spindle moulder and planer thicknesser) are single phase, but this converter has enough spare capacity that it'll run a 3 phase power feeder or whatever if needed too.

I was influenced by re-sale values and the cost of installing three phase when I decided to go with single phase power, but when I made the decision I thought the Hammer K3 perform panel saw I was getting was 4kW, and not the 3kW supplied. (typo in the literature Felder say, they don't do a 4kW single phase set up that fits the saw)

Depending on how the machines perform on 3kW single phase it's possible I should have gone for a large converter to power the entire shop. If they prove to have enough grunt for what I need then single phase was the right decision... :roll:

 

[kirkpoore1]

On rotary converters. My other machines (spindle moulder and planer thicknesser) are single phase, but this converter has enough spare capacity that it'll run a 3 phase power feeder or whatever if needed too.

I was influenced by re-sale values and the cost of installing three phase when I decided to go with single phase power, but when I made the decision I thought the Hammer K3 perform panel saw I was getting was 4kW, and not the 3kW supplied. (typo in the literature Felder say, they don't do a 4kW single phase set up that fits the saw)

Depending on how the machines perform on 3kW single phase it's possible I should have gone for a large converter to power the entire shop. If they prove to have enough grunt for what I need then single phase was the right decision... :roll:

Ian, three phase power is a drug. Pretty soon you'll be browsing internet ads for used industrial equipment, getting a trailer hitch and heavy shocks put on your car, investing in gear pullers, bearing separators, and a pallet jack, and calling your buddies on the phone and having conversations like "You should see this great table saw I got! I swear it weighs almost a ton, and it only cost me 75 euros! Umm...are you busy right now? I need a little help unloading it...".

I'm up to six operational 3 phase machines now (four on my RPC, two on VFD's), and I've got two more ratholed awaiting restoration. If my RPC was a pushbutton start and wasn't so darn noisy, I'd probably have more.

Kirk