£3/400 plunge saw & rail vs £100 circular saw

[petermillard]

While I, too, am more than delighted with my TS55 and guide rails, I'd like to remind folks that the Festool right angle attachment for the guide rail is a piece of poo. Unless they've actually redesigned it properly.

Festool make their 'Parallel guides"' now - these can also do duty as a right-angle attachment, but they come at a steep price.

The DeWalt one is pretty good, fits the Festool rails just fine - cheap too . But yes, I wouldn't want to use it on anything other than the 800 rail, personally.

 

[Triggaaar]

I've usually got a piece of scrap wood around of the same thickness. So you just stick it under the rail and the piece you want to cut underneath the grippy part of the rail and away you go. I've cut oak floorboard trims of 40mm width quite happily using this method.

So using this method I guess you don't need another circular saw, unless it's just for rough jobs.

Really not a good idea.

Which, removing a riving knife, or buying something like the Hitachi that doesn't have one, and using it to plunge cut? That's what my chippie does, but he knows what he's doing and where the saw could jump etc. Why is it a bad idea?

If you wnt to rip up timber of all sizes for general use, buy a mid range B&Q Saw, this will cover jobs like cutting up old timber, or perhaps outdoor jobs like decking where it's likely to get thrown around.

I couldn't bare the idea of cutting decking with a B&Q saw if I had an FS with me. But I do appreciate the FS is not at its best when being thrown around.

I'd almost be happy to loose my table saw for it

I appreciate you say almost, but it's the fact that I don't have room for a table saw that makes the saw & guide combos appealing.

I use it with a Nilfisk Alto Aero 25 which cost me £80 at Screwfix, they compliment each other, and I can't see why I would need a Festool one.

They don't have that at the moment, is it a wet dry vac, or just std vac? It all mounts up doesn't it. So apart from a £430 saw (with one guide rail) what else do you need with the FS? Do you need special clamps, or just the ones it comes with?

I have the 800mm and 1400mm rails and these cover all my needs.

So is the 2.2m rail long enough for 2.4m sheets (assuming the saw cuts a bit further than the rail).

One thing I would warn folks about is the "slippery slope". Once you own one Festool, because they are so well made and part of a system, you will start to look at the other Festools and it is all downhill from there.

Maybe I should get the Mafell.

i can see how it could be accurate enough over a short distance but for cutting anything long (say even a 600mm door for a kicteh cupboard) I never found it accurate enough.

If I understand, this right angle attachment comes with it, and the solution is to make your own.

 

[petermillard]

Which, removing a riving knife, or buying something like the Hitachi that doesn't have one, and using it to plunge cut? That's what my chippie does, but he knows what he's doing and where the saw could jump etc. Why is it a bad idea?

In a plunge saw the plunge mechanism is sprung; take your hand off the handle and the blade springs back into the housing. The base of the saw is locked into the grooves of the rail, and you can use a stop to prevent kick-back. You can accurately set the depth of cut. To plunge cut a normal circular saw you have to completely slacken off the depth adjuster, so you have no control over the depth of cut. If you think about what you'd need to be doing, you're trying to hold up a spinning blade that wants to drop into the workpiece at the same time as keeping the base of the saw aligned, then introduce the blade to the work at a steady pace at the same time as moving the saw forwards to make your cut. Yes, it can be done, but it is not a safe or accurate way of working.

The rail clamps are specific to Festool, though they make a few different types. If anything, the rails should overhang the workpiece by 200mm or so, so that you can plunge the saw before starting the cut; I have two 1400mm rails and an 800mm rail.

Maybe I should get the Mafell.

I'd try one first; the guiderails are quite different - the rubber strip doesn't get cut on the Maffell, so doesn't act as a splinterguard. Their way around this is to have a 2mm preset for a scoring cut - but this means that you really have to clamp the rails for every cut, so not such a fast way of working.

The right-angle attachments don't come with the guiderails, but can be bought as an accessory. The DeWalt ones work well with the Festool rails.

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Triggaaar]

Thanks for all the replies and help

To plunge cut a normal circular saw you have to completely slacken off the depth adjuster, so you have no control over the depth of cut.

I thought you'd set the depth, put the toe of the base onto the wood, and lower the rest of the saw into the wood whilst the blade is spinning (but not moving the saw forward). Obviously not as good as having a proper plunge saw and rail, but I thought it did the job (just not as easily, and not accurately enough for furniture making).

The rail clamps are specific to Festool

So if going for a festool, what do you actually need? The base kit (£430), a second rail (seems pointless without) and clamps as well? and what else? It could go from being an expensive option to an unobtainable option.

 

[Oryxdesign]

If we knew where you lived Trig we couldt invite you round for a try before you buy. If you are near me you can come round and have a go with mine

 

[Triggaaar]

If we knew where you lived Trig we couldt invite you round for a try before you buy. If you are near me you can come round and have a go with mine

Thanks. I'm in Brighton.

 

[Oryxdesign]

You can have a go with mine, but I'm in Staplehurst so I guess it's about 50 minutes from you. Maaybe there is someone nearer.
Si

 

[RogerS]

Thanks for all the replies and help

I thought you'd set the depth, put the toe of the base onto the wood, and lower the rest of the saw into the wood whilst the blade is spinning (but not moving the saw forward). ......

.....

The idea of trying to do that scares the s**t out of me. The chances of the saw digging in and then flying back t you blade spinning, soft flesh. It happens so so quickly, you simply don't have any chance of correcting or stopping it.

Just think through the mechanics for a moment. With a plunge saw, you can put all your weight down onto the saw, it's held solidly in place by the rails, as you lower the plunge the only direction it is going is either forwards or, if you're not holding it properly, then backwards and I have had the Festool push back at me especially when starting the cut at the edge of your workpiece as the blade dug it.

Now your non-plunge saw, blade fully down, spinning madly, the saw being pivoted on the front edge of the base plate maybe, the cut line somewhere underneath, you gradually attempt to ower the spinning blade while trying to keep it roughly on the cutline while trying to keep the baseplate down while trying to stop it sliding sideways while trying to stop it flying back towards you...........A&E time.

 

[petermillard]

I thought you'd set the depth, put the toe of the base onto the wood, and lower the rest of the saw into the wood whilst the blade is spinning...

Ah, OK. Rather you than me - not sure how you'd keep it on the cut line, and definitely not on my list of favourite things to do You'd only be able to use that method for rough dimensioning, I'd have thought, as I think I'd struggle to use any kind of home-made guide with that technique?? I think we might be getting slightly side-tracked with plunging here as well; don't know about you, but I don't do that many plunge cuts i.e. in the middle of a workpiece - kitchen sink cut-outs and door blanks spring to mind as the my most recent. For me, the real benefits are from the guide rail (speed, simplicity, accuracy) and dust extraction (general health and quicker cleanup) - the outstanding quality of cut goes without saying...

So if going for a festool, what do you actually need?

Apart from money, lol? Depends what you're planning, but a base kit, second rail, pair of joining bars and some kind of adapter (if required) so you can hook up your vac will get you started. I'd add a pair of clamps if you're planning a lot of bevel cuts, otherwise I rarely use them - the Festool rails are very grippy.

I'm in Brighton

If you ever get up to London, you're welcome to come and have a demo here. Actually, there are supposed to be a couple of good Festool dealers not a million miles away from you - Fixing & Powertools Centre in Redhill, and Bryant Fixings in Horsham. Haven't used them myself, but they were recommended by another UK member of FOG.

HTH, Pete.

 

[Niki]

Hi Triggaaar

As for cutting your body with the CS....please have a look here and.....be careful
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/07/05/ ... 246823079/

If you'll choose the "cheap way", please have a look at the posts below...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... highlight=

A small clamping improvement (in my opinion) you can see here
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 223#426223

Regards
niki

 

[FatFreddysCat]

Indeed, I am sure the Festool is a wonderful tool, there aren't many complaints - there was one on the Axminster site though, aparantly you can't really use it without the rail, as you can't see the blade, which apparantly makes cutting on thin (width not depth) pieces of timber tricky?

Yes, it's a bit of a problem, but since the Festool comes with a guide rail you'd normally use it on that.... On the other hand Bosch [GKS55, GKS65 and GKS85] and Hilti [WSC 255-KE and WSC 265-KE] both do conventional saws which run on guide rails (the Hilti uses Festool-profile rails) or directly on the workpiece but which can also plunge. There are a few circumstances where the guide rail would gets in the way or where the job is really a bit too rough (such as in-situ cutting of floor/wall openings) where I'd hesitate to use a rail saw but if your work is primarily workshop type stuff it won't be a problem

The base of the saw is locked into the grooves of the rail, and you can use a stop to prevent kick-back. You can accurately set the depth of cut. To plunge cut a normal circular saw you have to completely slacken off the depth adjuster, so you have no control over the depth of cut.

Agreed, but there are some plunge saws around which don't return to home position on a spring. The two manufacturers named above make them. I'm certain they aren't alone.

Maybe I should get the Mafell.

I'd try one first; the guide rails are quite different - the rubber strip doesn't get cut on the Mafell, so doesn't act as a splinter guard. Their way around this is to have a 2mm preset for a scoring cut - but this means that you really have to clamp the rails for every cut, so not such a fast way of working.

I agree that the older Mafell saws certainly do work that way. The latest MT55cc doesn't. It uses a sacrificial red rubber strip in exactly the same way that Festool does. Just like the Makita SP6000, the deWalt DW520S and the Hilti saws it will run on a Festool rail - although for a new purchaser surely that is hardly an issue.

The rail clamps are specific to Festool

So if going for a festool, what do you actually need? The base kit (£430), a second rail (seems pointless without) and clamps as well? and what else? It could go from being an expensive option to an unobtainable option.

Actually, they aren't. The self-same clamps are sold by Bosch under their name. What they are, though, is darned expensive! A basic useable kit is pretty much what Peter Millard has, i.e. a saw, 2 x 1400mm rails, 1 x 800mm rail, 2 x rail joiners and a pair of clamps. The guide rails need to have some sort of box or carrier made or bought to protect them as they are rather prone to corner dings. That lot will allow you to rip down 8 x 4ft sheets, trim doors to length, etc, but don't forget that you may also need a couple of extra blades (such as a rip blade)

I thought you'd set the depth, put the toe of the base onto the wood, and lower the rest of the saw into the wood whilst the blade is spinning (but not moving the saw forward). ......

The idea of trying to do that scares the s**t out of me. The chances of the saw digging in and then flying back t you blade spinning, soft flesh. It happens so so quickly, you simply don't have any chance of correcting or stopping it.

It's a bit like plunging through with a jig saw, Roger. It can be done if done carefully but it shouldn't really be attempted by the inexperienced. It's how I used to take-up floor boards before getting a plunge saw. I've got to admit that the plunge saw is much safer

For what it counts when (if) my 7 year old Hilti dies I'll probably replace it with a Mafell simply because the tool seems to be a typical Mafell - solidly engineered and durable. I've used Festools at work for a few years now and I'm just left with the impression that, rightly or wrongly, they are a bit fragile. Similarly I can't live with the plunge action of the DW, although that's a personal issue. At the end of the day, though, I'll still keep an old rip saw for rough work (and the odd pivot plunge cut :roll: ).

 

[petermillard]

Agreed, but there are some plunge saws around which don't return to home position on a spring.

Thanks, I didn't know that; without arguing semantics here though, I wouldn't class an unsprung circular saw as a plunge saw personally, even if it does sit on a rail... *shrug*

The latest MT55cc... uses a sacrificial red rubber strip in exactly the same way that Festool does

I didn't know that, either thanks It's been a year or so since I looked at them closely - thought the original system was a crazy way of doing things at the time, so not surprised they've changed it.

Actually, they aren't. The self-same clamps are sold by Bosch under their name.

Sorry, my mistake - I'd forgotten about the screw clamps, I was thinking of the lever clamps that AFAIK nobody else makes. Totally agree about the cost of these things, though!

I've used Festools at work for a few years now and I'm just left with the impression that, rightly or wrongly, they are a bit fragile.

That's interesting; have you had any mechanical failures? Only ask as I know what you mean! The saw seemed a bit lightweight and 'plasticky' when I first got it, but I can attest to its robustness after many years of solid use. I don't coddle my tools (no guiderail bag for me!) but I don't abuse them either - and nobody else gets to use them!:shock:

Cheers, Pete

 

[FatFreddysCat]

Agreed, but there are some plunge saws around which don't return to home position on a spring.

Thanks, I didn't know that; without arguing semantics here though, I wouldn't class an unsprung circular saw as a plunge saw personally, even if it does sit on a rail... *shrug*

Well, my Hilti plunges and can be locked "down" for the cut and manually retracted at the end of the cut. But it does take two hands to do that. Can't say about the current Bosch saws, though, as I've never used one on a rail. What is certain is that the Bosch saws are a lot cheaper

The latest MT55cc... uses a sacrificial red rubber strip in exactly the same way that Festool does

I didn't know that, either thanks It's been a year or so since I looked at them closely - thought the original system was a crazy way of doing things at the time, so not surprised they've changed it.

There's a review of the MT55cc from WPP (magazine) on the NMA website here which clearly shows the strip being sawn away on page 2 (and illustrates that Mafell are buying what appear to be the self-same screw clamps :roll: ). The review by Andy King in GWW also mentions it. I don't know if their original system was that crazy, though. On the Festool system (and copies) the soft rubber strip along the edge of the guide rails does wear out and needs to be replaced periodically, or even when changing blades (such as when a blade is sharpened), it also allows you to score melamine-faced boards with almost no chipping even if the blade is past it's best. BTW I know that you can "shuffle" the guide rail edge (anti-splinter) strip outwards a few times (it's attached with double-sided tape), but it's still an extra "running expense" which the original Mafell system avoided. On the same subject, though, Festool is the only saw to offer the sacrificial anti-spelch block for the non-rail side of the cut (for the OP it's the green "thingy" to the right/front of the blade guard). Whilst it's a nice idea every blade requires a different one (and when the blade is sharpened a new one is needed), they wear out and as most of my cuts have a good side and a scrap side I can't see any point in using it. It's probably a bit of a gimmick if you use the saw heavily

I've used Festools at work for a few years now and I'm just left with the impression that, rightly or wrongly, they are a bit fragile.

That's interesting; have you had any mechanical failures?

Yes. The cam adjusters which keep the saw properly aligned on the track wear out (i.e. go sloppy or tighten up on their own) and require replacement fairly regularly. Also we've had a couple of saws where the plunge pivot point has fractured as a result of being dropped. The replacement of the base plate is quite expensive. That means there's now a standing instruction to return the saws to their Systainers when not in use. Other than that they seem to have been reliable

 

[petermillard]

Well, my Hilti plunges and can be locked "down" for the cut and manually retracted at the end of the cut...

Ah right, that makes more sense.

I don't know if their original system was that crazy, though...

It was more the being 'forced' to do a scoring cut that irked me - twice the work, clamping the rail etc... I'd had my Festool for a few years by then and it just seemed like a lot more work to me.

Festool is the only saw to offer the sacrificial anti-spelch block... I can't see any point in using it. It's probably a bit of a gimmick if you use the saw heavily

I won't disagree - I've never used the one that came with mine.

The cam adjusters which keep the saw properly aligned on the track wear out (i.e. go sloppy or tighten up on their own) and require replacement fairly regularly...

Thanks for the heads-up. You must use yours a lot more than I do; mine are still fine after ~ 5 years of use - though probably fewer miles of board cut

Dragging ourselves back to the big picture for Trigaar, from where I'm sitting right now I can see some under-stairs cupboards I built about ten years ago, before I started doing this for a living. The hi-gloss doors were cut to size with a £70-quid Ryobi circ. saw (admittedly retro-fitted with a decent blade) and nothing else but a straight-edge clamped to the work, and some masking tape. I honestly could not get a better cut today with my Festool setup; quicker certainly, easier, for sure, but no better.

Conversely, I don't know anyone who's tried a track saw who hasn't come away convinced they need one, so I guess the real question is, do you?
It's only money... :wink:

Cheers, Pete.

 

[jedmc571]

Not sure if anyone's aware? but about a year and a bit ago Festool,did a soleplate upgrade :?:
On the old version the green cam adjusters are all that's used to lock it on to the rail, the upgrade was nothing more than a small black anti wear strip in front of the cams.

Not sure If they're avaiable as a seperate, but I'll try and find out more, Sorry havn't got time for a pic today, but 'll se what I can do next week

Cheers

Jed

EDIT

 

[chippy1970]

Not sure if anyone's aware? but about a year and a bit ago Festool,did a soleplate upgrade :?:
On the old version the green cam adjusters are all that's used to lock it on to the rail, the upgrade was nothing more than a small black anti wear strip in front of the cams.

Not sure If they're avaiable as a seperate, but I'll try and find out more, Sorry havn't got time for a pic today, but 'll se what I can do next week

Cheers

Jed

EDIT

Yes they are available seperately, when I bought my TS55 they had just changed to the new plate and I got the old one but my dealer swapped it for me. Festool said it was only really a problem for people who cut a lot of solid surface material as the dust could cause premature wear on the old style metal parts on the base plate.

 

[wobblycogs]

There's been loads of talk about the Festool so I thought I'd chip in with my experiences of the Bosch GKS65 to give you a different view point. I've not had it long but I've cut a good range of materials with it and all the cuts have been excellent. Laminate cuts cleanly as does solid wood. Ply tends to splinter a tiny but acceptable amount if the cut isn't taped supported in someway.

The tool is solidly built and will clearly withstand a few knocks but it is also design to be pretty accurate. The only disappointing bit is the depth adjustment lever which feels a little flimsy to me. Could have done with being made from aluminium I think. It doesn't have a riving knife which I believe the Makita does. If you are mostly cutting man made board I don't suppose that is such an issue though. I have done a couple of full depth cuts in pine and it has more than enough power.

I don't currently have a commercially available guide system but I have made my own out of some aluminium extrusion (it was part of a shower cubicle I removed) and it gives a perfect straight cut every time. I use a block of wood to space the guide rail back from the cut line. I've found myself having to rip sheets quite a bit. The best way I've found to do this is lay a few old pallets on the ground outside such that the cut is aligned with the slats. It supports the sheet on both sides and gives a safe clean cut.

There are a few downsides, cutting anything thinner than about 150mm is pretty much impossible with my current home made rail system since it has to be 131mm back from the cut line. The motor sticks a long way out to the left of the saw so the guide rail has to be very short and clamps can get in the way. The first saw I got had a moulding fault meaning the blade could only achieve and angle of about 88deg to the base plate. Bosch took it back and supplied a new one within a few days (and I ended with an extra bag).

I really like the saw and at <£100 it's pretty cheap. Having seen the Festool demonstrated I admit to wanting one but I'm happy with what I've got for now.

 

[Yorkshire Graham]

Hi. After lurking for several months I thought it was time I joined and made a contribution. Nothing to do with the original post, but worth a mention.

I thought you'd set the depth, put the toe of the base onto the wood, and lower the rest of the saw into the wood whilst the blade is spinning (but not moving the saw forward). Obviously not as good as having a proper plunge saw and rail, but I thought it did the job (just not as easily, and not accurately enough for furniture making).

About 30 years ago when I was young and careless I did exactly as quoted above, with the added bonus that I was kneeling on the floor behind the saw. In what seemed like a couple of nano-seconds, the saw jumped back and made a cut in my jeans about an inch away from the family jewels. Miraculously, only a small cut to the skin below. I have been Captain Cautious ever since. I still feel a bit sick whenever I see that saw.

Graham

 

[Triggaaar]

What do you guys think of the Makita SP6000k1?

It can be had with 2 1400mm rails, connector, 2 blades, 2 clamps, for £300 here

Does it produce accurate, clean cuts, or is it quite inferior to the other (more expensive) plunge saws?

The similar kit for the DeWalt DWS520KR-GB is £360

 

[Triggaaar]

It's interesting that in the states the DeWalt is about the same price as the Festool, and it's done well in comparison.

I think I can justify the price of either the DeWalt or the Makita kits that include 2 rails and the clamps, so I'd like to go for one of them. They may not be quite as nice as the Festool or Mafell, but at current prices they seem like the better value purchase and from what I can find by searching, they appear to be very good saws. I just need to choose which, so has anyone tried both?

Thanks