Advice desperately needed

[Garno]

Hi,
As a woodworking newby I have run into a bit of an obstacle.

I enjoy making small to medium sized boxes ( 12" x 4" x 3" or there abouts ).
Where I am lost is how should I be finishing these boxes whilst at the same time keeping the cost down?
Should I be looking at veneer? and if so would it be possible to use a space saver bag as a vacuum press thing?
I would like to veneer as I could use cheaper wood to make my boxes but don't know about the feasibility of it.
Would I need specialised equipment to start it?

Actually as you can probably see I don't really have any idea what I am talking about so any advice would be welcomed.

.

 

[marcros]

What material are you currently using to make them from?

 

[dzj]

Try hammer veneering. A simple, low budget technique that gives good results.
Plenty of 'how to' videos on YT.

 

[marcros]

Assuming that the joints are gap free and well cut (whatever that joint may be), in my opinion the 3 things that you can do to make the boxes look much better are:

1. Use thinner timber. This makes a huge difference. Buy the hinges first to make sure that they will fit, but you can probably go thinner than you think you can. Sketch the box cross section full size and see what you think.

2. Use better brassware. I use Isaac lord hinges which are £4-5 a pair or so. They are solid brass and very nice quality, but need polishing up. There is a thread where I have given a link somewhere. If not, I will find them again if you drop me a message.

3. Line the box with something. There is a thread that I can't link to on my phone explaining how.

 

[Garno]

What material are you currently using to make them from?

At the moment I am using Beech about 20mm thick

 

[Garno]

Try hammer veneering. A simple, low budget technique that gives good results.
Plenty of 'how to' videos on YT.

Thank you,

I have just watched one and would never of guessed what hammer veneering was.

Very mis-leading name

 

[Garno]

Assuming that the joints are gap free and well cut (whatever that joint may be), in my opinion the 3 things that you can do to make the boxes look much better are:

1. Use thinner timber. This makes a huge difference. Buy the hinges first to make sure that they will fit, but you can probably go thinner than you think you can. Sketch the box cross section full size and see what you think.

2. Use better brassware. I use Isaac lord hinges which are £4-5 a pair or so. They are solid brass and very nice quality, but need polishing up. There is a thread where I have given a link somewhere. If not, I will find them again if you drop me a message.

3. Line the box with something. There is a thread that I can't link to on my phone explaining how.

Thank you.

I have just started lining the boxes, Custard has a very detailed how to guide on here using pig suade. I have only done one box so far but the early signs are very promising. Accurate measuring is the key with lining.

 

[marcros]

If you want to learn veneering to increase your skillset, then go ahead. If you are doing it purely to save money, I think that you will be disappointed. I had the same thought some years ago. I have done some hammer veneering. Not a huge amount, so I offer no advice on technique.

Firstly, you need something to veneer onto. This is the "substrate". You need something that is stable, so solid timber is out, and you will need a sheet material. I have used both moisture resistant mdf (MRMDF) and ply. Birch ply, which is the most expensive ply I have ever seen, at £60 a sheet for 1/2". MRMDF is cheaper, but sometimes the colour shows through. It did on some rippled sycamore veneer that I used, and gave it a green hue. I have seen threads from the experts talking about MRMDF sandwiched between very thin ply, but that is beyond my knowledge.

Wherever you need to cut the box, you expose some edges. you can either veneer the cut edges, which I really struggled with when I practiced, or you can include some strategically placed solid pieces. I know these as solid wood clippings, but that may not be the correct term. If you do that, you need a very small amount of similarly coloured timber. Buying such small amounts is expensive and difficult. You will need these clippings where the box opens, probably at the top and the base. Your 4" high box probably has 3 1/2" pieces of solid in. True, the sheet material will last you a while, but you have to store it so that it is flat.

You will need a lid and a base. I used a thinner piece for the base. I think it was 1/4", and probably another £20. That size is handy for making bases for insert trays, so I like to have a bit on hand, but it is all expense.

you will need to buy veneer. Probably small quantities, and you will want nice stuff, so that will cost. It often isn't terribly expensive on ebay (offcuts are often well sized for boxes), but postage costs may well be a big % of the order. Again, if you buy more, you have to store it and look after it. You may need to flatten the stuff, although I have been pretty lucky in that respect.

For hammer veneering, the tools are fairly minimal, but you will need a veneer hammer (or make one), an iron (don't use the household one!), a scalpel, possibly a glue pot.

I don't want to put you off. it may be a technique that you partially use- I tend to use it more often for box lids, rather than sides. but I don't want you to just get a veneer hammer and think that the expense is done. I would do a few more in solid wood first.

To keep the cost down, look out for offcuts. This is an example, made by Racers. The lid is from a piece salvaged from Custard's woodturner pile. oak-knot-box-t100647.html?hilit=box%20custard. There are a range of cheaper timbers around, oak, ash, cherry, maple, others besides. laying out £20 on one of these will buy you enough to make a couple of boxes.

 

[custard]

If you dovetail your boxes together then veneering is risky; even a minute amount of shrinkage that would normally be undetectable will leave the pins and tails slightly proud, this telegraphs through veneer and at best looks scruffy and at worst causes the veneer to lift or break off.

But for mitred boxes veneering is entirely practical. However, working on such a small scale, with the need to veneer small fiddly parts like the sawn edge where you've separated the top from the base, is quite a faff. I'd suggest getting some veneering experience on easier projects before veneering a box. Hammer veneering has some real practical benefits when working on boxes, it shouldn't be thought of as a "make do", cheaper but second best alternative to a vac bag.

As Marcros said, veneering is rarely a sensible plan for saving money. True, it lets you utilise timbers that would be otherwise unobtainable, like Rio Rosewood, but the cost of really high grade veneers can be pretty staggering.

Personally I'd suggest making the main carcase of the box from solid timber, then veneering ply or MDF for the top panel and the base. If you do this you can either hammer veneer or, even easier, just make a basic press utilising F Cramps or G Cramps. If you go this route you'll probably also have to learn how to set in inlay or stringing to cover the join on the top where the solid timber meets the veneered panel. It's not terribly difficult and a few practise runs on some scrap will get you up to speed. If you decide to follow this plan let me know and I can walk you through the main steps. For straightforward rectangular boxes like this, I'll normally follow the method I've just outlined.

 

[sunnybob]

Boxes are the only thing I can actually comment on.
as you want to make it look pretty I assume its a trinket / jewellery box.
If it is and its only 30 cm long. then 20 mm thick walls is way too thick. I normally use 6 to 10 mm.

If you want to keep costs reasonable, then just buy a different wood to start with. If you can make a box using beech, then you can make a box using any hardwood.
By slicing planks thinner, the extra cost is soon made up, and you dont have to worry about all the extra cost and technical skill that veneering needs.
I work with rosewood, bubinga, walnut, maple, zebrano, in fact any thing that takes my fancy. I buy planks around 25 mm thick and by selecting straight timber can get as much as three slices from that thickness.
This box is 2 years old now, and I have learnt a bit more since then, but you can see the sides are only 8 mm. Made with walnut and maple. The inside is flocked, which is a very cheap way of obtaining a reasonable finish.
http://www.pbase.com/john_cooper/image/167118849
http://www.pbase.com/john_cooper/image/167118851

 

[Garno]

If you dovetail your boxes together then veneering is risky; even a minute amount of shrinkage that would normally be undetectable will leave the pins and tails slightly proud, this telegraphs through veneer and at best looks scruffy and at worst causes the veneer to lift or break off.

But for mitred boxes veneering is entirely practical. However, working on such a small scale, with the need to veneer small fiddly parts like the sawn edge where you've separated the top from the base, is quite a faff. I'd suggest getting some veneering experience on easier projects before veneering a box. Hammer veneering has some real practical benefits when working on boxes, it shouldn't be thought of as a "make do", cheaper but second best alternative to a vac bag.

As Marcros said, veneering is rarely a sensible plan for saving money. True, it lets you utilise timbers that would be otherwise unobtainable, like Rio Rosewood, but the cost of really high grade veneers can be pretty staggering.

Personally I'd suggest making the main carcase of the box from solid timber, then veneering ply or MDF for the top panel and the base. If you do this you can either hammer veneer or, even easier, just make a basic press utilising F Cramps or G Cramps. If you go this route you'll probably also have to learn how to set in inlay or stringing to cover the join on the top where the solid timber meets the veneered panel. It's not terribly difficult and a few practise runs on some scrap will get you up to speed. If you decide to follow this plan let me know and I can walk you through the main steps. For straightforward rectangular boxes like this, I'll normally follow the method I've just outlined.

Thank you very much for your reply,


It makes sense what you are saying and I think it is the way forward.

Would you recommend mitreing the boxes or going with dovetails?
The 2 boxes I have made so far have both been mitred but have ended up a little "off square" so one side is a mm or 2 wider/longer than the other, really noticable when lining.

I am determined to get it right and produce some nice looking boxes, I have 6 (Ideally) to make before Christmas, They are to be gifts.
I think I will now only veneer the lid and any guidance you can give will be warmly received, who knows I may even make 7 and send you one

Gary

 

[Garno]

Boxes are the only thing I can actually comment on.
as you want to make it look pretty I assume its a trinket / jewellery box.
If it is and its only 30 cm long. then 20 mm thick walls is way too thick. I normally use 6 to 10 mm.

If you want to keep costs reasonable, then just buy a different wood to start with. If you can make a box using beech, then you can make a box using any hardwood.
By slicing planks thinner, the extra cost is soon made up, and you dont have to worry about all the extra cost and technical skill that veneering needs.
I work with rosewood, bubinga, walnut, maple, zebrano, in fact any thing that takes my fancy. I buy planks around 25 mm thick and by selecting straight timber can get as much as three slices from that thickness.
This box is 2 years old now, and I have learnt a bit more since then, but you can see the sides are only 8 mm. Made with walnut and maple. The inside is flocked, which is a very cheap way of obtaining a reasonable finish.
http://www.pbase.com/john_cooper/image/167118849
http://www.pbase.com/john_cooper/image/167118851

Bob what stunning work you produce.

I can hold hand on heart and say if I made stuff as half as good as you have ( I looked at other items as well as the linked one) I would be a very happy man. Although I would like to be able to make them as nice as you have that may well be beyond my capabilities.


Thank you for sharing

Gary

 

[ED65]

Already well covered but I don't think you should give up on the idea of making your boxes in solid wood. It doesn't have to break the bank if you learn to resaw to make thinner stock, and especially if you harvest wood from discarded older pieces in skips, from the charity shops, flea markets and junk shops, maybe a timber reclamation yard if there's one nearby and with the occasional full-price buy of smaller pieces of really nice stuff (not ignoring the potential of offcuts) from the timber yard. Making a concerted effort you could build a quite respectable stock of nice wood in under a year, enough to keep you going for the next few unless you're fairly churning boxes out

That's not to say you shouldn't use veneering, and with contact adhesive or the iron-on methods it can be far easier than you might expect, but the above means you don't have to in order to make boxes that look a bit posh, and saves you from having to face the ever-awkward joints along the arisses.

In addition to veneering select pieces like the lids, other decorative touches you might like to incorporate to dress up a simpler box are contrasting dovetail keys at mitred corners (great use of narrow offcuts of nice stuff) and feather keys, these and more are covered in this PDF from Fine Woodworking.

 

[sunnybob]

Gary, all you need is a "can do" attitude.
4 years ago I could barely cut a square end on a piece of soft construction wood. Most of my boxes would be picked apart by a professional, but what you have to remember is that the people who the boxes are going to are NOT professionals.
Minor out of square and similar flaws that would make custard set fire to them, are perfectly acceptable by the vast majority of recipients.
If any one does actually look for and find a flaw, I just say "that proves its hand made" and they go away happy.

Always try to improve, obviously, but dont set the first bar too high.

 

[Garno]

I just want to say a big thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, some great advice has been given.

SunnyBob I think I am a step away from the "can do" attitude as I am swimming around in the " I want to do" attitude pool. Still not sure how to exchange enthusiasm for skill, I suppose it is practise, practise and then practise some more.

Custard you are absolutely right, I have taken in everything you said and have adopted the stance to only veneer the lid part and would be extremely keen for any pointers and directions you may have and will be in touch during the early part of next week if that is still ok with you.

ED65 thank you for those suggestions I will be following a lot of them and hunt down some wood. Thanks again.


Gary

 

[sunnybob]

just do it.
I kept an OAP in firewood for a year with my failures (no, I dont have a showcase of them :shock: 8) )
But I learnt more from a failure in my hand than a couple of perfect utube vids. #-o #-o 8)

 

[sammy.se]

just do it.
I kept an OAP in firewood for a year with my failures

I tried that once but social services told me that I need to let him out.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[custard]

would be extremely keen for any pointers and directions you may have

There are loads of different designs of boxes, and loads more ways of making them. I don't claim this is the best or only way of making boxes, but for simple rectangular boxes like this,

then the basic method of construction is like this,

This isn't a difficult box to make, in that there are no particularly complex skills involved, so this is the style of box I'd recommend for woodworking newbies. I've made far more difficult designs than this, but things get exponentially more taxing as you introduce curves and other sophistications, so stuff like that is best left until you've really mastered to basics,

But even though it's straightforward there are still plenty of things that can go wrong, and it still requires real care and precision in the construction. If you're slapdash or impatient then it'll look like rubbish and fall to bits before too long. If you meticulously follow logical steps in the correct order, then you can be reasonably confident that you'll turn out results every bit as good as the photographs above. As with so often with woodworking, it's all about doing the simple things well.

It'll probably take about 50-60 hours to make a box like this from scratch, a bit longer if you decide on butt hinges rather than the "smart hinge" or "neat hinge" style of hinges. After you've made a few you could expect to batch produce two or three in a week. If you want to add a removable tray and a lock then you need to add about a third to the build time.

It helps to have a router table, and you need to be able to cut accurate mitres. With a good quality table saw you can cut superb mitres from day one, but if you put the care into making a decent shooting board you can cut flawless mitres with hand tools alone. I know this for a fact because that's how I cut mitres for many years when I was working as a hobbyist from a garden shed. There are alternative methods of box construction that don't need mitred corners, they either use rebated corners or lock mitred router bits. But that's a decision you need to make at the very beginning as it'll determine later constructional decisions.

 

[Garno]

Once again many thanks Custard.
Would I be correct in saying that the lid and base would/could be the first thing to do in that the veneer would alter the thickness requiring a wider slot for it to sit in?

 

[sunnybob]

sunnybob wrote:
just do it.
I kept an OAP in firewood for a year with my failures


I tried that once but social services told me that I need to let him out.

Cyprus doesnt "do" social services. Its every man for himself here. Strangely, we also dont have thousands of immigrants or even dolers! :shock: 8) 8) =D> =D>