Spindle Moulder Advice

[Jacob]

T......

It isnt as clear as it could be, like a lot of these sorts of documents. I suppose because it covers so many different situations and sectors of woodworking industry, the regulations cant be as explicit as they really should be.......

Not clear because it is advisory and non of it is compulsory - which is the point I wished to be sure about.
In the event of an accident having not being compliant with the codes of practice will make you culpable - if compliance would have prevented it of course. However it is open ended and if you could show that you had adequate safety procedures in place you might be OK - "You may use alternative methods to those set out in the Code in order to comply with the law".
Not easy - if you have an accident at all obviously something has gone wrong but ascertaining the blame is another matter.

The point is, as several others have pointed out above - certain types of work (precise copying) can be made difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive, if compliant with the codes. One will just have to make sure that as you use alternative methods to those set out in the Code they will comply with the law.
That's OK, I can do that. In fact some of my procedures are safer than the codes - no hand feeding at all (except by push stick} for instance. Glad to get it sorted out - keep wondering if I might get an HSE raid!

 

[doctor Bob]

Glad to get it sorted out -

So was I.............. four pages ago...........

 

[Peter Sefton]

Glad to get it sorted out -

So was I.............. four pages ago...........

I am sure your not a busy man Bob and have all the time in the world for this sort of thing.

 

[RogerS]

...... certain types of work (precise copying) can be made difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive, if compliant with the codes. .....

Against my better judgement, feel duty bound to respond.

What exactly in the codes makes precise copying difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive (not that I agree with those last three comments either) ?

We have been talking mainly about limiters, for example. Limiters don't come into contact with the stock so how in God's name can you come up with your statement above?

Neither have you adequately responded to Bob's comment regarding centrifugal forces stopping your cutter from allegedly flying out (unless the wedge has dropped out). Still waiting on that one.

 

[Jacob]

Too soon to get me bugle out I see. :lol:

 

[doctor Bob]

No, me me me for the last word

 

[Peter Sefton]

Bob it's yours

 

[RobinBHM]

Nope, Im still clinging on

What happened to the OP?.............he's probably swapped to a new hobby by now

 

[RogerS]

So come on Jacob. Answer the questions.

But you can't because you realise that you've been called out too many times in this thread. You can bluster and slip and slide but you've been caught out (again).

 

[Jacob]

You are just to lazy to read the thread. There have been several explanations of the copying prob. No point in me explaining it again if you couldn't understand it first time around.
Is that your last post? :lol:

 

[RogerS]

You are just to lazy to read the thread. There have been several explanations of the copying prob. No point in me explaining it again if you couldn't understand it first time around.
Is that your last post? :lol:

Oh, this is so tedious, Jacob. This is your standard reply when you have been caught out.

Now, please grow up, there's a good boy, humour us and answer the two questions.

Or are you just trolling again?

 

[Jacob]

It's very quite over at the shaven Roger.
I think they may be missing your wit and wisdom. A sacrifice, but their need is greater than ours. :roll:
Was that your last post by any chance?

 

[heimlaga]

Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and use hand tools instead I would not be productive enough to be able to earn a living. I have made enough window sashes by hand in the past to have a fair idea of what rate of productivity and what income I could expect.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and only use those that have limiters I would loose my versatility so I would loose all my customers.
-If I was to discard my limiterless tooling and buy new tools with limiters that would cost me many thousand euros. I would have to take a loan and in my economy there is no marigin for loans....... so I would end up going bankrupt and loosing everything.

All theese three options would include shutting down the business and loosing everything and living on social benefits. I don't want to live on social benefits all the time. I DON'T WANT TO.
We aren't all upper crust people you see..... and laws that prevent a poor man from earning a living arent too important in my oppinion.

 

[RogerS]

Jacob, are you not at all concerned about how you are now coming across?

You have been asked two perfectly legitimate questions several times and yet refuse to answer either of them. Instead, you slip and slide and try and make little snide comments. You weaken your case and your standing every time you do this. Perhaps you don't care and are happy to keep on trolling.

My concern is this. I agree with others that, sometimes, you do have good advice to offer. Yet other times, you clearly do not. Newcomers to the forum could easily be lead down the garden path if they hung on your every word as gospel. Of more concern is that in some circumstances, your advice is dangerous.

So why not man up and answer the questions ? Or either admit that they were throw-away comments or that you were trolling.

 

[doctor Bob]

Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and use hand tools instead I would not be productive enough to be able to earn a living. I have made enough window sashes by hand in the past to have a fair idea of what rate of productivity and what income I could expect.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and only use those that have limiters I would loose my versatility so I would loose all my customers.
-If I was to discard my limiterless tooling and buy new tools with limiters that would cost me many thousand euros. I would have to take a loan and in my economy there is no marigin for loans....... so I would end up going bankrupt and loosing everything.

All theese three options would include shutting down the business and loosing everything and living on social benefits. I don't want to live on social benefits all the time. I DON'T WANT TO.
We aren't all upper crust people you see..... and laws that prevent a poor man from earning a living arent too important in my oppinion.

Plenty of good businesses seem to be able to do it. I have employees and had to do it, but it was not an issue, one of my main priorities is safety. I've spent many 1000's over the years on it and part of my business planning is costing to absorb these costs over many years so that the %age increase in pricing is negligible.
As mentioned previously, if you are a single person, I don't think it's a huge problem, it's your life, fingers etc personally I chose a car with an air bag, I have smoke alarms, I therefore value my own safety and would rather follow the safest possible practice rather than one that is known to be less safe.
For example, I now couldn't imagine and wouldn't work in a shop which doesn't have braked machines, fantastic safety feature.

 

[Jacob]

If you have cutters without limiters it's very easy to reduce the risk of a cut to near zero by doing everything with push sticks (plus the usual shaw guards etc) and also developing the hands-up reflex (described above). My hands never go near the cutters except when the machine is switched off.
Making a mistake switching on/off could be the weakest link in my safety regime but I am aware of this and very cautious.
Contacting the cutters is by far the greatest cause of injury according to HSE - so I have tackled the main issue and I reckon I am probably safer than many other users even those with limiters on their cutters.
How I would transfer the same level of caution to an employee is another question altogether.

 

[RogerS]

Thank you for your post, Jacob. An interesting recapitulation of your viewpoint.

Now, if we could perhaps return to the two questions ?

1) What exactly in the codes makes precise copying difficult, impossible, impossibly expensive (not that I agree with those last three comments either) ?

We have been talking mainly about limiters, for example. Limiters don't come into contact with the stock so how in God's name can you come up with your statement above?

2) Neither have you adequately responded to Bob's comment regarding centrifugal forces stopping your cutter from allegedly flying out (unless the wedge has dropped out). Still waiting on that one.

 

[heimlaga]

Still there is a problem. It is called MONEY.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and use hand tools instead I would not be productive enough to be able to earn a living. I have made enough window sashes by hand in the past to have a fair idea of what rate of productivity and what income I could expect.
-If I was to discard all my limiterless tooling and only use those that have limiters I would loose my versatility so I would loose all my customers.
-If I was to discard my limiterless tooling and buy new tools with limiters that would cost me many thousand euros. I would have to take a loan and in my economy there is no marigin for loans....... so I would end up going bankrupt and loosing everything.

All theese three options would include shutting down the business and loosing everything and living on social benefits. I don't want to live on social benefits all the time. I DON'T WANT TO.
We aren't all upper crust people you see..... and laws that prevent a poor man from earning a living arent too important in my oppinion.

Plenty of good businesses seem to be able to do it. I have employees and had to do it, but it was not an issue, one of my main priorities is safety. I've spent many 1000's over the years on it and part of my business planning is costing to absorb these costs over many years so that the %age increase in pricing is negligible.
As mentioned previously, if you are a single person, I don't think it's a huge problem, it's your life, fingers etc personally I chose a car with an air bag, I have smoke alarms, I therefore value my own safety and would rather follow the safest possible practice rather than one that is known to be less safe.
For example, I now couldn't imagine and wouldn't work in a shop which doesn't have braked machines, fantastic safety feature.

I try to work as safely as I can.
-I make my own guards to modern specifications for my old machines.
-All my machines have emergency stops and all that should have brakes have brakes.
-I am scrounging parts for a better air filtation system in the shop to protect my lungs.
However theese are the kind of safety improvements I can do myself between paying jobs or in my spare time when there is nothing profitable to do.
Adding home made limiters to an old cutter block would be more dangerous than using it without limiters so in that case the investment has to be paid for in cash which does not exist. There is no way to work around this money shortage as a home made solution wouldn't be good enough to do it's job.
For the same reason I drive a car without airbags or ABS. I cannot make them and do not have enough surplus money to buy a car for.

The economical downturn in Finland forces many small businesses to work for far less than the actual production cost covering investments and upgrades with loans in the hope that they can earn the money back in the long term despite the fact that there is no such profit marigin. Eventually this debth spiral tends to end in bankrupcy.
I am debt-free so I can stay out of this race towards the bottom but all this unsound competition means that I cannot rise my prizes above the absolute minimum needed to cover minimum costs and pay for a low living standard. Still at this prize level many potential customers choose my competitors on the basis of cost alone.
Once many enough of them have gone bankrupt I will probably be able to rise my profit marigins quite a bit and make a good bit of money but that is still years into the future.
Quitting and getting another job is not an option as I spent two years looking for a job with no sucsess before I set up this business. I had seen other unemployed people set up their businesses with loaned money and go bankrupt so I decided to not follow their route that leads even deeper into powerty and debth.

As you see..... there is no choice...

 

[Doug B]

Glad to get it sorted out -

So was I.............. four pages ago...........

I am sure your not a busy man Bob and have all the time in the world for this sort of thing.

Clearly he does :lol:

 

[RogerS]

Well, Jacob. Still waiting for an answer to those two questions. I see that you have been visiting the forum last night and so can't have failed to see my earlier repeat post requesting the two answers.

If you don't give any answers then the only conclusion to be drawn is that:

a) you realise that you posted a load of rubbish...another throw-away comment as per usual...but aren't man enough to admit that you were wrong

or

(b) simply trolling

and that any future posts of yours on the forum should be treated with extreme circumspection and caution.

Note I said 'an answer'. Not a wriggle. Not a 'slip'n'slide'.

I await with baited breath.