Lie-Nielsen Chisels-anyone else having problems?

[Anonymous]

snip

Not saying there is any thing wrong with them

Regards Colin

Thats OK then you had me worried 8-[ don't want to have to buy any new ones I'm hoping these'll see me out.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Colin C]

Jacob

I glad you got some good ones as I and some of my friends I have worked with have found that they dont seem hold an edge that well.

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Right off the bat, I was surprised and non-plussed when I read on the LN site that the chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, and that a 5 degree micro-bevel should be added. Try to chop dovetails with that...

I find chopping dovetails to be no problem at all at 32 or so degrees that I use. I am kind of surprised that someone would consider this a steep angle for chopping?

I think Paul experienced a bit of chipping on his chisels (he'll chime in if I misquoted him).

errr... if you'll recall I vehemently said it was *not* the LN chisels. I have had a little with A2 chipping at low angles when abused. This seems to be a general attribute of A2, but experiences seem all over the map, so there you go...

 

[dchenard]

Right off the bat, I was surprised and non-plussed when I read on the LN site that the chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, and that a 5 degree micro-bevel should be added. Try to chop dovetails with that...

I find chopping dovetails to be no problem at all at 32 or so degrees that I use. I am kind of surprised that someone would consider this a steep angle for chopping?

I think Paul experienced a bit of chipping on his chisels (he'll chime in if I misquoted him).

errr... if you'll recall I vehemently said it was *not* the LN chisels. I have had a little with A2 chipping at low angles when abused. This seems to be a general attribute of A2, but experiences seem all over the map, so there you go...

Here, I stand (actually sit) corrected

I bought one LN chisel just so that I can compare with the Japanese chisels I'm acquiring. It's beautiful with the cocobolo handle, feels nicely balanced, I'll put a few miles on it and see how it fares (in my view) against the other chisels...

But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer)

DC

 

[David C]

Rob Cosman is grinding at 17 degrees but certainly not honing at that angle.

Elm is very abrasive, possibly the worst of the english timbers.

Steve Elliott has some plane blade research which suggests that about 33 degrees suits A2 best.

The chisels are much harder than UK, some Japanese harder still. I notice with my students that the way they are used has a lot to do with edge life. Straight cutting lasts well prying and levering doesn't. I would polish at 35 to 40degrees for morticing.

As ever, if not happy, talk to them and something will get sorted PDQ.

Best wishe,
David

 

[Alf]

Jacob, please, no, not more inverted chisel snobbery. [-o<

As it happens, Senoir's comment diverts me into a tiny cul-de-sac - what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees? Just curious, s'all. No sub-text or nuffink.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees?

Measuring the bevel angle of an extant chisel would be very hard; honing or grinding to a known angle is simple with some jigs. (*)

BugBear

(*) potential flame war

 

[Alf]

So how are you measuring to make sure the jigs are getting it right? You might think you're honing to 32°, but how d'you know without measuring the resulting bevel? You might be getting slippage, dippage and all round missage and honing to <gasp> 31° or something. (Sorry to mention this horrible possibility - don't have nightmares, folks)

And yes, I concede that there is an element of sub-text creeping in here. 'Pologies. Such exactness doesn't come naturally to me and I find it uncomfortable.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Jacob, please, no, not more inverted chisel snobbery. [-o<

Just trying to bring people back to reality. Sharpening just seems to be getting more difficult for everybody, for no obvious reason :shock:

As it happens, Senoir's comment diverts me into a tiny cul-de-sac - what are youse folks using to measure bevel angles down to one or two degrees? Just curious, s'all. No sub-text or nuffink.

Cheers, Alf

Sub-texts are there like it or not - sorry you don't choose. 8)
Good question - you'd need magnifying glass or microscope plus other lab equipment, esp if dealing with "micro" bevels :lol:
How did they manage in the bad old days - rough oil stones, no jigs, no diamonds etc. At least the woodwork didn't suffer from this deprivation, if anything it was generally a lot better :shock: and no routers! :roll:

cheers
Jacob
PS re LN faulty (or needing fettling) chisels - isn't "useable out of the box" their greatest USP? Hmm

 

[George_N]

If you use a honing guide the angle is dictated by the geometry of the jig. The height of the chisel back above the stone is fixed by the jig and the other two sides of the triangle are dictated by how far the blade projects through the guide. The angle is determined by simple trigonometry...sine x = opposite over hypotenuse, where the side opposite the angle is the height of the blade on a line perpendicular through the centre of the roller and the hypotenuse is the length of blade projection.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh no not trigonometry as well! Most of us don't work in a woodwork laboratory. :roll:
The big weakness of all the jig designs I've ever seen is dead simple - yes they set the angle as required BUT to a minimum which it is then easy to exceed - and worse; impossible to go below (without re-adjustment).
This is because the wheel is in the wrong place. It should be infront, not behind. Instead of little chariot think little wheel-barrow IYSWIM.
Don't forget - you read it here first. 8)

cheers
Jacob

 

[George_N]

Oh no not trigonometry as well! Most of us don't work in a woodwork laboratory. :roll:
The big weakness of all the jig designs I've ever seen is dead simple - yes they set the angle as required BUT to a minimum which it is then easy to exceed - and worse; impossible to go below (without re-adjustment).
This is because the wheel is in the wrong place. It should be infront, not behind. Instead of little chariot think little wheel-barrow IYSWIM.
Don't forget - you read it here first. 8)

cheers
Jacob

You don't need to work in a lab or to use trig, the point I was making is that you don't need to measure the actual bevel to know what the angle is. And yes, the point of a honing guide is to constrain the angle (here we go again). If the wheel of the guide stays in contact with the stone you can't get exceed the set angle and if you were able to go below that angle you wouldn't be honing the edge, would you.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep

I have seen this on my chisels.

I tried a back-to-back test against my AI chisels whilst cutting some large half-blind DTs in Ash.

1) The AI chisels took a sharper edge. This was noticeable when I tried paring the DT sockets.

2) The AI chisels did not 'crumble' at the edge whilst the LN did

3) The AI stayed sharp for much longer too.

I subjectively prefer my LN chisels to my AIs (they feel and look so precise and such good quality) and get excited when my monthly chisel parcel arrives.

However, the AIs are 'better' chisels in that they actually work better.

 

[Paul Kierstead]

But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer)

Fair is using both as they were designed to be used. This is of course not a apples-to-apples comparsion, but that is because they are not both apples.

 

[Anonymous]

If the wheel of the guide stays in contact with the stone you can't get exceed the set angle

But it may not, and you may.

and if you were able to go below that angle you wouldn't be honing the edge, would you.

You can't hone an edge, however flat or micro the bevel, without removing material from behind the edge i.e. "backing off" (except for the first few molecules of steel on the first pass) can you.
Backing off even if going below the angle is still "honing". It's an arbitrary distinction being made between honing, grinding, backing off, this bevel, that bevel etc etc. Going below the angle makes the backing off part of honing easier and quicker.
cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

Just trying to bring people back to reality. Sharpening just seems to be getting more difficult for everybody, for no obvious reason

It's the long threads that do it.

BugBear

 

[dchenard]

But in order to make a fair comparison, I'll bring the bevel angle down to 25 degrees, we'll se how it holds up... (hammer)

Fair is using both as they were designed to be used. This is of course not a apples-to-apples comparsion, but that is because they are not both apples.

We seem to have a different view as to what "fair" means...

Fair to me means that we compare two chisels , prepared the exact same way, and look at the results (sharpness and edge retention). If one chisel requires a more obtuse bevel angle to "survive", well, I rest my case...

Besides, Rob Cosman (who is the exclusive LN dealer for all of Canada, for those who didn't know) doesn't seem to care much for "the way they were designed to be used", judging by the bevel angle he uses. Granted, I've never seen him use anything harder than walnut in his demonstrations, so this is a factor we shouldn't neglect.

DC

 

[dchenard]

Rob Cosman is grinding at 17 degrees but certainly not honing at that angle.

Elm is very abrasive, possibly the worst of the english timbers.

Steve Elliott has some plane blade research which suggests that about 33 degrees suits A2 best.

The chisels are much harder than UK, some Japanese harder still. I notice with my students that the way they are used has a lot to do with edge life. Straight cutting lasts well prying and levering doesn't. I would polish at 35 to 40degrees for morticing.

As ever, if not happy, talk to them and something will get sorted PDQ.

Best wishe,
David

From what I know, he adds a couple degree micro-bevel (freehand), so that would put the final angle at about 20 degrees.

As for Elliott, I'm aware of his work and am thankful for it. But the dynamics of chisel vs. plane blade use is different, and I believe (without anything to back up my assertion, I'll admit) that the ideal angle for a chisel is different for that reason.

A plane blade in use is "stressed" only on one side of the blade, while a chisel makes contact with the wood on both sides, therefore "balancing" the stresses on the edge. Because of this a steeper bevel angle can be used IMHO.

But obviously one wouldn't use a 20 degree bevel for morticing and prying (ouch)...

Best,

Denis

 

[MikeW]

I'm going to jump in here and then disappear again...

My own madness, no matter the chisel brand or era of manufacture, is to find the lowest possible angle it will do the type of work, on the woods *I* use and more or less keep them [near] there.

That my chisels I use for moderate to heavy chopping are blunt in comparision to my paring chisels doesn't bother me. That a manufacturer grinds them at a specific angle and has a recomendation may or may not fit what I do with the woods I use--obviously Cosman feels the same way. If the hardest wood I used was Walnut, all my chisels would be at a lower angle than they are too.

If an edge crumbles like my Sorby paring chisels did when first obtained, then grind them carefully back a little. If that cures them--mine got noticibly stronger--and that's not enough, steepen the bevel a little. Also like I did. In all likelihood that will improve them.

The fact is that I see many, many vintage chisels which are used up. I have a few. I made butt chisels from them. They hold an edge still [at the bevel angles they arrived with which I merely maintained]. Point being, whether these were better chisels than those made down the road was immaterial. Someone found a bevel angle which suited their work and wood and used the heck out of them. Most likely then bought more and used them up. Making things.

Take care, Mike

 

[CHJ]

...snip.. Someone found a bevel angle which suited their work and wood and used the heck out of them. Most likely then bought more and used them up. Making things.

=D> =D> =D> =D>