Whats wrong with a stacked dado?

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phantom of the offcut

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Hi all
I've been catching up on some NYW, and many thanks to Neilc for the link, it appears every project Norm builds invariably he uses his stacked dado head cutter. It seems to me to be very efficient and i am struggling to see why us woodworkers here are stopped from using them. I realise of course the blade is unguarded but that in itself is not an insurmountable problem and, how many of us use our table saws without a crown guard anyway?
So what is the consensus of opinion here i wonder?
 
phantom of the offcut":1e1kyw5q said:
Cheers Pete , I think i would like to retract this thread now :oops:

No problem :). I don't own a table saw, never used one, probably never will, so I'm entirely neutral on the whole subject.
 
I bought a new table saw in August and low and be hold it's not a break motor, which means that if I need to use a dado I can. I think and this is my own opinion, there seems to be a big problem with regards to dodo cutters used on a table saw. The biggest problem is having a motor with a brake, and after that one there is no guard. Then I'm starting to struggle to find the next reason. I my well have lost the plot completely and if I have please advise.
 
The latest edition of Fine WoodWorking has a piece on "Better cuts with your dado set".

Have not read it yet!

Rod
 
Well, as this thread seems to be well an truly underway (and, lets be honest, we haven't done it for a wee while) I can say that I personally think that a lot of tosh is spoken about dado heads (on both sides of the pond!).

Would I be right in thinking that if you are in the US the view is that it is right and proper and a human right to do whatever you want with a a tablesaw come what may, and that a dado is an integral part of that?

And if you are a Brit then the dado head is the work of the devil, every one in existence should be burned on a pyre and instant death is assured?

I think that the truth, if there is a truth, lies somewhere in Madeira, or at least somewhere else mid-Atlantic.

My own stand is that all the objections to dadoes are legitimate and that they can all be overcome.

Guarding. Any blind cut with a tablesaw means that a riving-knife-mounted guard needs to be removed. The temptation, therefore is not to bother at all and run the risk of using the blade unguarded. To do so is to underestimate the risk and to expose oneself to unnecessary danger. If you remove the crown guard, then use an alternative guarding arrangement then replace the crown guard afterwards. Personally I think that most crown guards, which have been around for generations, are very poor, passé, and much better options are available, even to the home woody, at little expense. I've written about home-made SUVA-style guards and one appears in some of my filming, for example. It's my current avatar, too.

The other aspect is momentum. A 1/4" stacked dado has twice the momentum of a 1/8" blade. Momentum = mass x velocity, so if we double the mass, the momentum is doubled too. But the weight of the blade is small compared with the size of the dirty great big motor inside my Excalibur 806. It does increase the stop time, but not by much. I'm still comfortably within the 10-second EU limit.

So it seems to me that the two primary objections are reasonably straightforward to overcome. I don't use my stacked head that often, but when I do I use it guarded and it gives me great service.

One of the arguments against, and it is a valid one in the real world, is that once a guard (or riving knife) is removed it doesn't go back on. Well that is not, it seems to me, an argument against the dado blade, it an argument against bad practice. Perhaps one against poor design of tablesaws. TS design is driven largely by demand in the US, and I'm pleased to see that new models are appearing with more modern design features - riving knives that are easy to adjust, remove and replace, blades that tilt away from the fence, switches that are where they are easily reached. Some day all saws will have these features.

The danger is that people with basic home-grade TS that was never intended to operate a D will think, "I can do that with mine" and fit a blade that substantially affects the momentum of the saw, they don't introduce appropriate guarding and carry out operations that expose the inexperienced to higher risk than is justified.

In such circumstances, stacked dadoes are, indeed, dangerous and should be avoided.

But I think it is more due to the nut operating the machine than the nut on the spindle.

S
 
maltrout512":3swo9mtl said:
I bought a new table saw in August and low and be hold it's not a break motor, which means that if I need to use a dado I can.

Also remember that your arbor needs to be long enough to take the width of the dado stack and the nut.

Does the manual that came with the saw mention using dado cutters? If not it may be worth checking with the manufacturer.

Misterfish
 
Well put Steve.

I have had chance to look at the FWW piece in more detail and the emphasis is on using Dados safely with sledges, sacrificial fences, long push sticks etc. etc.

Rod
 
I have only seen pictures of dado blades and they look smaller in diameter than the standard blade. If this is correct the momentum will be reduced.
 
Well, Pete, Yes an 8" stack will have a smaller momentum than the equivalent 10", that is true, but it is not lower than a single blade. Even a 1/4" 8"stack has more momentum than a standard 10" blade, simply because it is heavier, even though it does have a smaller diameter.

S
 
You haven't yet dealt with three points that I can think of:

1. Few stacked dados are of the chip limiter design - so are much more likely to pull your fingers in and mangle them beyond repair if you do have an accident (Scrit passim)

2. You mention removing the riving knife and not replacing it, but you do not cover the risk of removing the riving knife during the cut itself. Decent (that means European) designs of riving knife can be lowered for non-through cuts, but won't help with a wide dado head. The risk of the cut closing may be less than with a through cut but it is not zero, especially in solid wood. (probably Scrit passim)

3. There are safer ways to achieve the same result - so why fly in the face of the basic principle of H&S (aka self preservation) that if there is a choice of methods, it is *sensible* to choose the more dangerous method over the less dangerous method. (Scrit passim)
 
Jake
You are absolutely right.

I've never used a d that wasn't chip limiting, so I can't say what the difference in use is.

The cut closing up? Yes that might be a risk, too, especially if you are cutting deeply. But if you are just making housings for shelves, for example, I would have thought that was negligible. Edit - actually this is not a good example, as I would use a router and housing jig for that task, but my point is about depth of cut.

Alternatives? Indeed. But you have to admit, that for runs (not one-offs) a d is very much faster and in some cases does a better job. If it doesn't, then there is no point in using one at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro dado heads per se, I just think that some of the arguments against are out of proportion to the actual risks compared with, say, using a router, with which I've had more accidents than with a tablesaw. If people are going to use the it is better if they know ow to use them with maximum safety and know what risks tey are running. If dado heads get banned altogether, that is a different matter, but as yet, they are not.

S
 
Steve Maskery":2nv0mxqg said:
I've never used a d that wasn't chip limiting, so I can't say what the difference in use is.

From a search, I think you have the Freud set - that is not a chip-limiter design, as I understand it from erm Scrit passim.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a fanboy - but he was very clearly by far the best trained and most knowledgeable wood machinist I've read opining on the subject, and I'll take his word over most.
 
Yes, Jake, I have the Freud. They call it the "Safety Dado". Well, OK, everything is relative. But if it is not chip limiting, what are those backward-facing tooth-like bits sticking up behind each tooth?
S
 
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