What to ask for at the sawmill?

[Halo Jones]

Hi All,

My designated mission during the Christmas break is to make a new gate for the garden. It will be 1 m wide by 1.8 m high. I was thinking of top rail and stiles being 50 mm thick finished and filing it in with tongue and groove boards about 19 mm thick. I am planning on using larch to match some other bits and bobs in the garden. I know my local sawmill stocks it as I have bought it before but always asked for PAR. I now have the equipment to process my own boards and fancy giving it a go but don't really know what to ask for! Do I really need to go and see the boards or is there a way of working it out to get a quote? :?

Thanks,

H.

 

[twothumbs]

I would work out what I need as finished wood before going. The mental arthimetic always seems hard when standing in the yard. So you need something as a min.. of 50xsay100 (45x95)....so about 5.4 plus cutting etc. For the boarding, about 8 boards at 100 (95) so say about 13 .0. You can then see what they have and can work out the final sizes and lengths to purchase. You may choose to rip up bigger sizes or settle for nearly finished sizes or even change you ideas. Best wishes. PS don't rely on my maths.

Forgot. With boards you may choose to make the bottom and mid rails thinner by the baord thickness. My maths didnt incldue for that.

 

[blackrodd]

I always start with a plan, sketch out the item, decide how it is fixed and kept in position and sizes of timber needed for stiles, top rail, etc, etc. finding a plan or photo one already made can help. then with the cutting list and allowing for waste, get to the wood yard, HTH Regards Rodders

 

[marcros]

tick the pieces off your list as you find them. It can be difficult when you have assumed a length is available and then have to recalculate everything when they are different, particularly when you were thinking of getting several lengths out of a long piece, and it worked out without much wastage.

I try to identify which boards will show on the finished item- i tend to mark these faces with chalk, and also which board is for what. Otherwise you end up doing it all again when you get back home. If you change your mind, chalk just rubs out so the yard dont mind. Using a table, for instance, i would go searching for the best boards for the top, and get some that work well together. Then look for the remainder of the piece.

I also make notes on my cutting list of what i might be looking for- eg, if it is oak, i know that i should be able to get some 6-8" boards, and wont get anything at 3". so if i want 2 pieces at 8' x 3", i note on my list 8' x min 7" "rails" that means that i dont have to keep going back to the main components check whether i will get what i need from it. I would put top "needs to be 6x3" rather than worry too much about the board widths (i was after random board spacing).

Larch may be a bit easier- it will likely be reasonably cheap, so you can work out what you need and buy plenty.

I quite enjoy buying timber, providing that any "labour" you take with you knows that it isnt going to be a 10 minute job!

 

[Halo Jones]

Thanks for all the advice. I will ring them up and see if they are open Saturday morning (good way to avoid being dragged to the shops :shock: ).

Roughly how much should I take into account for prepping boards - if I want 50 mm finished should I be looking at 55 mm thick boards, 60 mm etc.

My rough plan and the rough prices on their website bring it in at about £45 - 55. Does this sound about right?

H.

 

[marcros]

Depends a bit on the length of the pieces you need, but typically I would allow about 1/8" minimum off each face or 1/4" off the thickness. You will probably find that the options are nominal 1", 1 1/2", 2", 3" depending on species.

You will need to think about your plan- do you need it to finish at 2" thick, or in reality will 1 3/4 do? Etc etc. it is a lot more work to have to take nearly an inch of thickness off each board. Also adds to the wastage allowance, since you have had to buy the extra.

Do check the thickness of boards. Just because they say they are 2" doesn't mean for a second that they actually are. Sometimes metric works in your favour and you will get 28mm boards (I think, may be 26mm though)

 

[Rhossydd]

Roughly how much should I take into account for prepping boards

If this is the first time you're going to try preparing from scratch, be generous in your cutting list to allow for some errors.
The project will be less stressful if you have some spare material around to practice set ups and joints on, plus it's always nice to have some spare materials around for the next project.
The worst thing you can do is buy too little, then find you've got to go back and find more material that will match the last batch.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Also. not mentioned is the amount you plane will of course be dependent on the out of true-ness of the board. I've lost 10-15mm of oak before when planning rough sawn because the timber was delivered...so you get the bananas!!

So if its a quality piece now I always hand pick the timber and sight it myself to select the best for all quality criteria. Then I work on losing 5mm in planning to finished thickness.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hi All, ... I was thinking of top rail and stiles being 50 mm thick finished and ...

That's an odd size. You need something rough sawn that's thicker than 50 mm to get 50 mm finished, which means you'll need to buy rough sawn 3" (75 mm) material, so a significant amount of wastage. It's rare to find rough sawn 2-1/2" (~ 63 mm) stuff which would give you the 50 mm easily, although it's sometimes available.

You are likely to have to make a couple or three choices:
*Spend what's required for the thicker stuff (3"), waste about 1/3 of it and accept the cost, although if you get lucky you might be able to buy 2-1/2" material.
*Spend what's required for the thicker stuff and increase the thickness of your stiles and rails leading to a heavier structure which may also be visually unsatisfactory, and possibly too heavy for the job
*Buy 2" material (50 mm) and waste as little as possible getting the wood true and to a thickness, hopefully something close to 45 mm, but now you may have stiles and rails that may be a little too thin for the job.

However, I suspect that 45 mm would be thick enough for a garden gate, unless you're aiming to prevent large farm livestock from escaping. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Do check the thickness of boards. Just because they say they are 2" doesn't mean for a second that they actually are. Sometimes metric works in your favour and you will get 28mm boards (I think, may be 26mm though)

It's not really that metric works in anyone's favour. The reason why you sometimes get rough sawn material a bit over the nominal size is simply because of standard sawmill practice. If the intention is to eventually sell a seasoned board at a nominal 2" thick the sawyer cuts the board out of the log at about 2-3/16" or 2-1/4" thick to allow for about 5% or 10% shrinkage in the drying, with the shrinkage dependent upon the species and the intended dry wood target.

The reason for this standard practice is fairly obvious to most people I suspect because if you're selling wood that you describe as 2", it had better be that (or more) otherwise customers reject it. Slainte.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Larch is pretty resinous, and fast growing.

If you're converting it yourself, make sure you have some nasty chemical handy for cleaning the planer knives beds and drum during and after the process. It might be easier to let the shavings pile up as they'll be wet and won't travel well through dust extraction hoses. DAMHIK...

The knots can be downright evil too - very tough when cutting across them with any tool, and a propensity to just fall out when they start to dry and shrink. You'll struggle to find knot-free planks, but it's worth taking them into account when buying. It's really frustrating to realise your big mortice (or worse, a tenon cheek) needs to be right where that knot is.

Regarding planking, but boards cut with the tree rings tend to have large and unpleasant resin inclusions running lengthways.

I was a child in the bottom corner of Surrey. There used to be a few Larch plantations down that way (but it's not Scotland!), and it was used quite a bit for rustic buildings there and in Sussex: the lap finish often had a waney edge visible. It's one less machining pass if you like the style.

E.

 

[Halo Jones]

That's an odd size. You need something rough sawn that's thicker than 50 mm to get 50 mm finished, which means you'll need to buy rough sawn 3" (75 mm) material, so a significant amount of wastage. It's rare to find rough sawn 2-1/2" (~ 63 mm) stuff which would give you the 50 mm easily, although it's sometimes available.

This is where I fall down. Not knowing what is usually available and then getting odd looks when you arrive at the sawmill!

However, I suspect that 45 mm would be thick enough for a garden gate, unless you're aiming to prevent large farm livestock from escaping. Slainte.

No livestock, just a couple of cats and two boisterous kids (hammer). 50 mm was just a made up thickness due to my lack of knowledge as to what was available and what I thought would be sturdy enough. I am also sure 45 mm will be fine.

In all honesty, this gate is more to keep the neighbours nosey nose out!

Will let you all know how I got on!

H

 

[marcros]

That's an odd size. You need something rough sawn that's thicker than 50 mm to get 50 mm finished, which means you'll need to buy rough sawn 3" (75 mm) material, so a significant amount of wastage. It's rare to find rough sawn 2-1/2" (~ 63 mm) stuff which would give you the 50 mm easily, although it's sometimes available.

This is where I fall down. Not knowing what is usually available and then getting odd looks when you arrive at the sawmill!

However, I suspect that 45 mm would be thick enough for a garden gate, unless you're aiming to prevent large farm livestock from escaping. Slainte.

No livestock, just a couple of cats and two boisterous kids (hammer). 50 mm was just a made up thickness due to my lack of knowledge as to what was available and what I thought would be sturdy enough. I am also sure 45 mm will be fine.

In all honesty, this gate is more to keep the neighbours nosey nose out!

Will let you all know how I got on!

H

Dont worry about not knowing and having to ask. It is pretty standard stuff when speaking to a new yard, asking what species they keep, and what thicknesses. Probably gets a bit tedious if you ask for every thickness in every species. Widths tend to be random, with some exceptions. It helps to know what you are looking for species wise, and have an idea of whether the yard you are speaking to may keep it- does the yard specialise in native timbers? yes- so probably no point asking if they have ebony. If you are polite, nobody minds a few questions.

The people who are a nuisance are those that claim to know everything better than the rest of the world.